Transformational Trauma and Healing: Integrative Therapies to Release Trauma

Join me in my conversation with Jessi Beyer. Jessi is a mental health speaker and author of How To Heal: A Practical Guide To Nine Integrative Therapies That Can Help Release Trauma. We talk about some of those integrative therapies and why you might want to try them.

Find Jessi at https://jessibeyerinternational.com/

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Transcript

2:45 - Carrie Rickert Welcome, Jessi. I am so glad you're here today.

3:09 - Jessi Beyer Thank you so much for having me, Carrie. I'm super excited to be here.

3:13 - Carrie Rickert I feel like this has been a long time coming. So it's glad that I'm glad we finally connected.

3:19 - Jessi Beyer Yes, me too. It's been a few changes on my end and a few changes on your end, but we're here and we made it and I'm super excited for this conversation.

3:29 - Carrie Rickert I'd love it if we started out with you giving us a little bit of background on you. I mean, yes, we've heard your bio, but, you know, how did you actually get to this place in your career? What happened in your life that made you want to work in and speak about trauma?

3:50 - Jessi Beyer Yes, absolutely. So like, I think a lot of people who work in the mental health space, my journey started with my own mental health struggles. For me, that was high school. High school is already rough enough as people are kind of figuring out who they are and developing into little tiny adults. But I had a lot of mental health struggles during high school as well. Things like depression and anxiety, self-harm, disordered eating, things like that. And I was also in a relationship with someone who was really struggling with his mental health.

4:18 - Jessi Beyer A lot of similar things, depression, self-harm, as well as some suicidal ideation. And our relationship was tumultuous at best. Unfortunately, that relationship ended with his suicide attempt. And I was actually the one who called 911 that night to intervene on his suicide attempt. That night was really, really difficult, obviously, for both of us. He had this plan. He thought I was going to be supportive. I ended up not being supportive. He got led out of the house in handcuffs, taken in the back of a police car to involuntary treatment.

4:49 - Jessi Beyer I was left feeling, you know, both glad that I did that and I intervened, but at the same time feeling like I broke his trust and I let him down and just so many emotions, so many feelings, a really difficult night. And from that time period in my life, I really didn't have any sort of professional supports. My mother was amazing when I sat her down on the couch and said, Mom, I need a therapist. She's like, I'm on it. And she found me someone and just was so supportive for that. But unfortunately, that therapist was not a good fit.

5:18 - Jessi Beyer I don't think that therapy modality was a good fit. It was pretty traditional talk therapy. You And I just felt so, so under the microscope in this little tiny room on this little tiny couch with this little tiny window. And I was just not here for it. And I literally, I ran out of that building and I never went back. So like I was saying, my whole healing journey really was done on my own. And like, I had friends and family and things like that, but I didn't have any sort of professional support, which I believe made it much longer and much more difficult than it could have been if I had found someone to work with.

5:50 - Jessi Beyer So that event in high school, that relationship in high school, really kind of set off that interest in me of like I'm interested in psych, I'm interested in trauma and kind of suicide prevention and things like that. So I studied psychology at the University of Minnesota for undergrad. And it was okay, but I took this one nature-based therapies class that just really opened my world up. I was like, oh my God, there are these other therapies? Like there's other things besides talk therapy out there?

6:17 - Jessi Beyer Completely blew my mind. So I started digging more into these types of integrative therapies that use movement or animals or nature or some combination of those. In order to get at that part of trauma that you can't just sit there and talk about. That led to my book coming out, which we've already talked about in my bio, so I won't go into that, but that kicked off my speaking career, and so I've done a lot of work with kind of how to be a good peer support system, suicide prevention, trauma therapies across the country, and actually across the world, which has been super fun.

6:45 - Jessi Beyer I have my master's as well. In critical psychology and human services with a focus in trauma and crisis intervention. And now I'm actually doing work with a couple of different police and fire departments as an infield crisis response individual for people who are having some sort of behavioral health struggles. So very long journey to where I am, but it all started with my experience and not feeling like I had the resources and support.

7:10 - Jessi Beyer That I wanted as I was healing from that experience.

7:13 - Carrie Rickert Sure. And I think that that is so common. You know, because there are resources out there, but unless you know to ask for them, or you know that they're there, they are not just like, there's no like bright shining light saying, hey, you know, if you feel like you're depressed or you need a therapist, here are some things, right? And I know I've struggled with my own mental health um you know have had my own trauma experiences and and there are still resources that I am discovering now but that's because I'm looking for them and you know there are resources that I have discovered for my son who's on the autism spectrum and has had some mental health challenges as well and you know, like things that I just didn't know to look for because I didn't know they were there.

8:22 - Carrie Rickert So like, it's hard to ask for help when you don't know what to ask for. So, you know, part of the reason that I do this podcast is for that reason, right? So to, to make it known to people out there that there are things available. They may not be the traditional things that we think about. And, you know, asking for something and looking for the thing that you need to help you heal is so very important. And, you know, like there's a lot of stigma around mental health still. Like I keep thinking, oh, it's getting a little bit better.

9:10 - Carrie Rickert And in some ways it is. But in a lot of ways, it's not that, you know, like Again, it's all these hidden resources. People could be living healthier lives if they knew they had these things available.

9:29 - Jessi Beyer I'm so glad you brought this up because this happens all the time when I start talking about my book or my speaking work and specifically the therapies that I discuss in those things. People are like, I've literally never heard of this. And I was like, I know that's why I wrote this. That's why we're talking about this. And what's so frustrating to me is not only are these resources not commonly known or not commonly discussed, but there are parts of the mainstream psychological community that actively repress these therapies for a whole host of reasons that I'm happy to get into if you want, but they are not promoted.

10:02 - Jessi Beyer They are not considered empirically based, evidence-based therapies. But the evidence-based therapies that these mainstream psychological communities are promoting, they don't work for everyone. And so you have these people that go into this therapy, they have the courage to overcome that stigma and ask for help in the first place, and then it doesn't work, or they don't like it, or they're too uncomfortable, or they don't find the right therapist. And then instead of saying, hey, no big deal.

10:28 - Jessi Beyer That didn't work for you. But what about this therapy? What about equine-assisted therapy? What about dance movement therapy? They're just left with, oh,

10:34 - Jessi Beyer It's your fault. You didn't finish the treatment protocol. Or, oh, you didn't put in the work. You didn't do your homework. Or, oh, well, sorry. There's nothing else here for you. These are your options. And then these people leave kind of feeling worse about themselves. Because again, they got over that hump.

10:50 - Jessi Beyer They tried. They did the best they could. And it didn't work. And now they're like, well, Great. You know, now I'm out. Luck. Now there's nothing else I can do.

10:56 - Carrie Rickert Of

10:59 - Jessi Beyer So that's why I do this work to your point. That's why you have this podcast. That's why I do the work that I do not to tell people how to heal, but so they know what their options are so they can actually make an informed decision about what's going to work for them because.

11:11 - Carrie Rickert There are options. And if something doesn't work, there is something else to try. So let's talk about. Your nine integrative therapies that you discuss in your book.

11:26 - Jessi Beyer Yes.

11:27 - Carrie Rickert Tell us about each of those therapies and how they've either helped you or how you've seen them help other people.

11:35 - Jessi Beyer Absolutely, and feel free to stop me at any point if you have questions, because this can kind of,

11:39 - Jessi Beyer I can talk about this for a while. So the way that I kind of look at the integrative therapies that I discuss is in three main sections. There's movement-based therapy, there's nature-based therapy, and there's animal-assisted therapy.

11:51 - Jessi Beyer Starting with movement-based therapy, those are things like dance movement therapy, trauma-sensitive yoga. Those are modalities that really address the somatic part of trauma. So the part of trauma that's stored in the body that you can't access just by talking about it or thinking about it.

12:07 - Jessi Beyer These therapies specifically are really great at rebuilding that bridge of trust between the mind and the body, especially for trauma survivors that have had some sort of interpersonal trauma, maybe like domestic violence, sexual assault, something like that. In those instances, the body is saying, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Right. There's that boundary that's being violated, but because of the power dynamic and the inherent trauma of that situation,

12:33 - Jessi Beyer The brain can't listen to the body and get the body out of that situation. And so there's kind of this, this severance between the mind and the body where the body is like, well, I don't trust you mind. I'm going to take care of myself. And the mind's like, body, what are we doing? Like everything's okay. Everything's normal now. And so these integrative therapies, specifically the movement based ones provide an opportunity to build that bridge again. You know, for example, in trauma sensitive yoga, the brain can listen to the body and say, Hey, okay, you don't like that movement.

13:02 - Jessi Beyer Let's do this instead. And then the body's like, Oh, you do listen. Cool. And it just starts to rebuild that dynamic again. So those are phenomenal therapies again, especially for survivors that have some sort of interpersonal boundary related physical trauma that they experienced in their lives. With. The Nature. Go. Ahead.

13:19 - Carrie Rickert Well, It's. Interest. Nope, Sorry, I was just going to say, it's interesting that, you know, I know about movement based therapies, but I have always, I work out a lot and, and I say that that is my sanity, right? Like that is my, that's the way that I connect with my body and release all of the like, and that frustration or depression or anxiety, like I work out and that way I can only think about what exactly I'm doing in that moment. So all of the other things, it's kind of like meditation, right?

14:06 - Jessi Beyer Yes, it is, absolutely. And I'm glad you brought that up as well, because I do a lot of the same things. I run now, I swam a lot in college, and swimming especially is like half breath work, half exercise, because your breathing is on a pattern and it's on a timeline. And you can't freak out too much when you can only breathe every second, third, fourth stroke, whatever it is that you're doing. So there's actually some really cool research as well coming out about trauma-informed weightlifting and how that can be used as a grounding exercise and also physical activity.

14:34 - Jessi Beyer So really,

14:35 - Jessi Beyer Really cool things happening in that space.

14:37 - Carrie Rickert That's awesome. I love that.

14:40 - Jessi Beyer So moving into kind of that second category of therapies with the nature-based therapies. This is such a fun category. I live in the Pacific Northwest. So nature is kind of inherent in our DNA. Like if you live here, you spend time outdoors. That's kind of how it works. But there's so many amazing healing benefits of spending time in nature. This is one category of science where they're like, we have these 300 studies that show improved benefits. Decreased salivary cortisol, which is decreased stress in the body, decrease in depression and anxiety symptoms, increase in social connection and healthy social relationships, all of these different benefits.

15:20 - Jessi Beyer And we don't entirely know how it works. We just know that nature is this thing that is beyond us and greater than us and more powerful than us. And it can lead to some of these really incredible healing benefits. With ecotherapy specifically, kind of one of those in the nature-based therapies category, It's a very broad spectrum. I think a lot of times when people hear ecotherapy, they think these backcountry multi-day adventures, really hardcore, have to be this, you know, big outdoorsman in order to participate.

15:49 - Jessi Beyer And that is one end of the spectrum. But at the other end of the spectrum is actually indoor ecotherapy. It's very oxymoronic. But it's the concept of bringing natural elements indoors. So having a little bubbling fountain, having a picture of the forest, having a sandbox that you can play in, you know, you've seen those in therapist's office, but like the little shovel and, you know, these things that you can play in, in the sandbox, just a little like 18 by 12 inch sandbox, not a legit,

16:15 - Jessi Beyer Yeah. Yeah, just clarifying for people, because I'm like, what if Sam looks in my house? What? So anyway, things like that, that are indoor ecotherapy. And what's interesting about that kind of end of the spectrum is that the original research on the healing benefits of nature was done with artwork of nature in hospital rooms. They didn't even have like an actual plant. They just had a picture of nature in hospital rooms and found that patients who had nature in their rooms healed faster than patients that didn't.

16:42 - Jessi Beyer So that kind of kicked off this whole, what is nature? You know, how is it healing for us as humans type of thing? So when you're- And that's so.

16:49 - Carrie Rickert Interesting. Cause I, I mean, I'm thinking about the hospital rooms that I spent a lot of time in. Um, yeah, there was no, there, there was no nature there. Um, you know, it was also University of Maryland shock trauma. So, you know, probably not the priority, but I, you know, it is interesting to know to wonder if I would have healed faster had I been in nature. I know once I finally was allowed to leave the hospital for even just 10 minutes, that going outside was such a relief. Like even in the middle of the city, it just like fresh air and some plant life.

17:40 - Carrie Rickert So yeah, that's interesting.

17:43 - Jessi Beyer Yeah, there's a lot of work that's being done in kind of the hospital architecture space for when new hospitals are being built or hospitals are being remodeled. They're becoming a lot, or rather the patient wings are becoming a lot skinnier so that every patient can have a window to the outdoors. And they're trying to incorporate more green spaces, whether that's like a rooftop garden or a little courtyard or something so that patients can go outside and just like touch a tree, you know, or see the sunlight or something like that.

18:11 - Jessi Beyer So it's interesting that you kind of had that thought of like, did I have that? I don't think so. And man, I wish I did, you know?

18:20 - Jessi Beyer Yeah, so those are kind of the nature-based therapies, that spectrum of ecotherapy, and then some things like flower essence therapy and different modalities like that. What's cool about nature-based therapy is that it can be combined with other therapies. So you can do trauma-sensitive yoga outdoors, or if you're doing equine-assisted therapy, you're also outdoors. So it's this kind of ever-present, you know, addition to different types of healing. And like we were talking about with exercise and your own exercise practice and my own exercise practice, you can spend time outdoors by yourself.

18:53 - Jessi Beyer Like you can go on a walk, you can sit in your garden, you can make a garden, you can do all these different things. And I do want to be clear, I'm not suggesting going on a run or going swimming or spending time in your garden as a substitute for therapy, because I think there's a ton of benefit of having a mental health professional to help guide you through that healing journey. And at the same time, you can kind of supplement that process with exercise,

19:18 - Jessi Beyer With time outdoors, things like that, so that you're not just confined to this one hour, twice a week that I see my therapist. That's the only time I can heal. You can integrate these things into other areas of your life.

19:28 - Carrie Rickert Right, exactly. Because, you know, healing isn't just a one and done, right? It's not like limited to your therapist's office. There's so much healing that can be done just in your day to day when you're being intentional about it. Like I know I take my dog for a walk every single day. And part of that is because he needs it. But part of that is because it is my time to spend time outside and You know, if it's freezing cold, I just bundle up. If it's raining, you know, the walk might be a little bit shorter, but

20:14 - Jessi Beyer Yes. Yeah.

20:15 - Carrie Rickert You know, but I would say that that is, you know, it is a combination of being outside and moving my body and all of those things that reduce the stress and anxiety. And it is also something I have to be intentional about. Like, I'm going to take time for myself and the dog right now and take a walk. And I'm going to notice what's around me. I'm not gonna just walk with my head down and not say hello to anybody or not look at the trees or things like that. Like, I think that's something important to remember too is that All of these things can be beneficial but we need to think about them in that way, a little bit.

21:11 - Carrie Rickert Makes sense to you?

21:13 - Jessi Beyer Yes, it totally makes sense. And I do this thing when I'm out in nature where, you know, if I'm on a hike or a run and I'm just, you know, in my head about whatever, I'm stressed about this. I'm worried about that. Just the simple act of tilting my head up and looking up at the sky. It just changes my whole, it changes physically my whole body structure.

21:34 - Jessi Beyer Because instead of staring at my feet and looking down,

21:36 - Jessi Beyer I'm now opening up, I'm opening up my heart space. I'm looking up at the sky and It is that moment of pause of like changing the mental perspective, looking at something else. Sometimes if I'm even really stressed out about something, I will just lay down in the middle of the trail. I don't care if I look weird, but just laying in the trail, feeling the earth support me, looking up at the sky, looking up at the trees, just softly swaying in the breeze. That perspective shift. And to your point, that intention of I am going to use my surroundings.

22:07 - Jessi Beyer I'm going to connect with my surroundings so that I don't just drown in whatever's happening in my head.

22:12 - Jessi Beyer Those are ways that you can kind of switch up that daily practice of pulling the weeds out of the garden. My God, there's more weeds. Where do they come from Okay, how can I be intentional about this? You know, oh, I'm walking the dog. There's that dang neighbor who always leaves his newspaper in the driveway. Okay, how can I be intentional about this? Finding those small moments of presence, of connection, of intention, of being in that moment, absolutely essential to really getting the most out of that activity or that experience.

22:39 - Carrie Rickert Yeah, definitely. I mean, that is definitely true for me. So let's talk about animals.

22:48 - Jessi Beyer My favorite, actually not my favorite, they're all my favorite, but I love animal assisted therapy. The two modalities that I am most familiar with and that are most common are canine assisted therapy and equine assisted therapy. Although there are some really cool things with like dolphin-assisted craniosacral therapy in the tropics, which we can get into if you want. But for most people, it's going to be canine-assisted therapy and equine-assisted therapy.

23:11 - Jessi Beyer Pretty self-explanatory, dogs and horses, but they show up in very different modalities. So for canine-assisted therapy, there's kind of three categories that I want to briefly touch on so people know exactly what we're talking about. In today's society, there are emotional support animals, which are people's pets that make them feel better simply by their presence. So by petting them, snuggling them, playing with them, taking them on walks, they help people feel better.

23:37 - Jessi Beyer There are service animals, which are still people's, like the person who's using them, the dog lives with them, and that dog is trained to perform a specific task for someone who struggles with a chronic condition. So that could be waking someone up from nightmares if they have PTSD, It could be if someone's triggered coming over and putting their head on certain parts of that person's body to help them calm down and regulate. It could be for physiological conditions like diabetes or a seizure alert dog.

24:06 - Jessi Beyer So there's lots of different ways that service animals can be used.

24:09 - Jessi Beyer And then the final category. Which is what I'm talking about when I talk about canine assisted therapy, are therapy dogs. And these dogs are not trained necessarily to perform specific tasks for someone with a chronic health condition, but the big differentiator here is that they live with the provider. So they are the clinician's dog or the handler's dog, not the person who's necessarily getting benefit from them. So this could look like your therapist that you go to every week has a therapy dog who's in the office and that dog can breathing exercises with you.

24:42 - Jessi Beyer Like, okay, put your hand on the dog's chest, breathe the same pace that it does to help someone down regulate. It could be mindful grooming activities, which is also done with equine assisted therapy, but you can pet the dog. You can brush the dog and you don't have to look at me when you're talking. And so that's a little bit easier. You can talk to the dog. You can build that relationship with the dog. It's also really great for populations that are maybe a bit neurodivergent. So having the dog in the room and for kids as well.

25:08 - Jessi Beyer Like the dog can be a metaphor. So how do you keep the dog safe? Okay. Now, how can we have that feeling of safety in your own life? Just that bridge and that, that tool in a way to help open up those conversations with the human therapist. There's some fascinating research on canine assisted therapy, even on things like canine assisted therapy in mobile crisis teams. So teams that go out alongside fire and police kind of like the work that I'm doing now. But one of my favorite studies is that there, they did a study where they sort of tried to simulate trauma but in an ethical way in their participants where they showed, and it was like a really gory scary movie clip and then compared how two different participant groups reacted physiologically stress, sweat levels, heartbeat, things like that.

25:53 - Jessi Beyer And one of the rooms, one of the groups of participants had a dog in it and one of the groups didn't. And the group that had the dog, they weren't interacting with the dog. Like it was literally just the dog was in the corner. And there were statistically significant differences between the two groups in terms of stress responses to that clip when the dog was just in the room. So that is a testament to, right. It's a testament to, okay, there's something going on here. And we aren't even looking at interactions with the dog.

26:20 - Jessi Beyer So I love canine assisted therapy. I think it's so powerful. My dog, uh, she comes to work with me and she's kind of like the unofficial department dog at one of the police departments that I work at. And whenever they start getting upset about something or like yelling about a call or their voices raised. She kind of looks at me out of the corner of her eye and then she gets up and she goes over and she jumps up on their lap and she's like, I'm here, it's okay, you can calm down. And then they get to snuggle her and laugh and it just kind of diffuses that situation.

26:46 - Jessi Beyer So things like that are canine-assisted therapy. And then for equine-assisted therapy, there's really two main models. There's the Igala model and the Epona model. The Igala model is, I would say, more widespread than the Epona model. And that is a completely grounded equine assisted therapy. So you will never get on the horse. You are not riding the horse. What you're doing is you're using the horse and the landscape and some different props in order to work through different stages of your trauma.

27:15 - Jessi Beyer So looking at how can we acknowledge it all the way through to how can we rewrite the story. With the Epona model, there's more physical connection with the horse. There is some basic riding activities, but it's things like sit up really tall and strong on the horse and see how that feels. You're not going to be asked to like gallop across the field or anything like that. So very basic, but going back to that movement piece, using the movement of the horses walking as a rhythm to kind of shake loose some of that stuff, some of that trauma that's stuck in your body, as well as a lot of mindfulness activities.

27:48 - Jessi Beyer Mindful grooming, you can draw the horse, you know, different things like that stretch with the horse, different things to integrate more of that movement side into the Epona model. So there's, again, some really, really crazy and the best possible way stories of people healing with equine assisted therapy. One that I'll share was told to me by an equine assisted therapist in Minnesota, who I interviewed for my book. It's in the book. You can read it, but I'll tell it here anyway, because it's so cool.

28:15 - Jessi Beyer This woman just showed up at the farm one day, like she didn't have an appointment. She was just there. And the therapists go out and they're like, you know, hi, how can I help you? She's like, oh, you know, I'm fine. I just, I just wanted to, you know, see what it was about. So they're like, okay, well, come on in here. You can come in and meet this horse. And this horse came up to her and was just kind of checking her out and just like nibbled on her arm a little bit. And she's like, oh my gosh, it's so cute.

28:41 - Jessi Beyer And the horse walked away and kind of did a lap around the pasture and came back and like bit down on her arm a little bit harder. And she's like, oh my gosh, wow, he really loves me. Did another lap around the field, came back and then like chomped on this woman's arm. And she's like, that hurts. And that sequence of events from oh so cute to oh he really loves me to how that hurts. That flicked in her brain and she was like, oh my God, I'm in an abusive relationship. Like this is the exact same pattern that my partner does to me.

29:11 - Jessi Beyer I love you. I love you. I really love you. I hurt you. I love you. I love you. I really love you. I hurt you. And she was able to recognize that pattern in her own relationship. And I think she actually became a client at that therapy facility because of that interaction. But that horse I don't even, no one knows how he did it. There are so many of these kinds of mystical stories with horses where it's like, how did they see that? How did they know how to do that? Same thing with nature. We don't totally understand it, but they are incredible, incredibly intuitive healing tools for people that are struggling with trauma and other types of mental health concerns.

29:46 - Carrie Rickert Wow. That is so cool. That's, that's an incredible story. On this podcast, we like to bring resources to people, both for those who have experienced trauma and for those who are supporting people who have experienced trauma or mental health challenges. I know you talk a lot about how to support someone who's struggling with mental health. Tell us a little bit more about that.

30:17 - Jessi Beyer Absolutely. First of all, if you are supporting someone who's struggling with mental health, whether that's trauma or something else entirely, I want to just give you a big giant virtual hug because that is not an easy thing to do.

30:30 - Carrie Rickert It.

30:30 - Jessi Beyer Can be so selfless and so kind hearted to do, but it can be really, really hard as well. So.

30:38 - Jessi Beyer I applaud you. I applaud your willingness to support someone who's struggling and really try to be there for them. The biggest tip that I can give you is probably the hardest thing to do because when you love someone and you care about someone so much, your tendency is to want to solve the problem. You see a solution, you want to present the solution and you're like, yeah, but do this thing, do this thing and I'll fix the thing and then we're good, you know? And as someone who's supporting someone, your role is to not do that.

31:06 - Jessi Beyer Your role is to be there for them, listen to them, support them in their decision-making. And that can be frustrating as well, because sometimes it can feel like you're just going around and around and around and around and around and not actually getting anywhere.

31:18 - Jessi Beyer So one concept that I want to share with you is called holding the space. There's a woman named Heather Plett, who quite literally wrote the book on this. And she discusses how holding the space is being there for someone without judging them, without trying to change the outcome of their situation, just opening your heart, showing up with love and compassion for this person. And a lot of people hear this and they're like, okay, great, but what do I do? And it's like, you don't have to do anything.

31:45 - Jessi Beyer You have to be this space where they can come in any emotional state with any concern, and they can talk to you about it. I have a series on my Instagram from a couple of weeks ago, a series of reels. It's six different active listening skills. These are skills that I use as a crisis counselor. These are skills that you can use when you're supporting someone, but it's very instructional like tools in your toolbox that you can use when you are holding the space for someone. Um, and they're talking and you're like, okay, well, what do I say if I'm not supposed to fix it?

32:13 - Jessi Beyer Like, do I just stare at them? Like, no, there are things that you can do. So some of those include reflective statements where you're kind of being the mirror for what they're sharing with you. They could say something like, or they could be talking about, you know, their struggles with their partner and how their partner never understands and their partner yells at them and how difficult that is and how they want to leave their marriage, and your reflection could be, oh my gosh it sounds really really terrifying to be in a place where you know you feel unsafe all the time.

32:42 - Jessi Beyer So you're kind of holding up that mirror and saying back what they said, but showing that, yeah, I understand what you're saying. I'm going to rephrase, and then I'm going to reflect that back to you. And the goal of that is for them to be like,

32:53 - Jessi Beyer Yeah, you get me. You understand what I'm saying. You're validating this experience that I'm having. One other kind of tool that I'll give alongside that Instagram series, which is totally free on my Instagram, obviously, is this tool called the Minnesota Art this was developed by a psychiatrist at the University of Minnesota for medical students, medical doctors, who generally have terrible bedside manner. Like they just want to really solve the problem and they don't really care about emotions.

33:18 - Jessi Beyer And what she was seeing was that these doctors would come in and they'd ask like one question and then they'd tell the patient the solution, whether that's the procedure or their prescription or whatever, and then they'd be out. And the patients would be like, We didn't even have a conversation. Like, I feel so unheard.

33:36 - Jessi Beyer You don't know anything about me. Maybe you're wrong. How do you know that that's what I need when you didn't even hear what I have to say? And so she developed this model to teach people like, hey, here's how to build a relationship with people before you shove a solution down their throat. And it's incredibly helpful for people who are struggling with some type of mental health concern for the people that are supporting them. And if that person is in some type of crisis, like a very high emotional state.

33:59 - Jessi Beyer So if you envision an arc, like a half circle, on one end,

34:03 - Jessi Beyer This is where you start building rapport. So this is where you're validating, you're using those active listening skills, you're holding the space for them. And you're trying to get up to this point of alliance, which is at the top of the arc. And that's where they say, yes. So if you do a really good reflection and you're like, yeah, it must be really difficult to feel this way and have this experience and blah, blah, blah. And they're like, yeah, that's exactly it. That's exactly what I'm going through.

34:27 - Jessi Beyer Now they trust that, you know, that they trust that you've listened to them, that you understand as best you can, what it is that they're going through. Then you can start to work towards some type of solution. So. I never like to encourage people to be like, this is what you need to do. You have to go to therapy. But I love questions like, what are your thoughts on this? Have you ever considered this? Tell me about your experience with this. So you're inviting them to collaborate with you to a solution instead of coming in with like, well, I saw this great therapist and it worked really well for me.

35:00 - Jessi Beyer And here's our number and let's make you an appointment. You know, it's more of, Well, you know, what's your experience with therapy been? And maybe they go off on, oh my God, I went once and it was terrible and I'm never, ever, ever going back again. Okay, great. More information. We can work with this. Maybe they say, well, I mean, I've thought about it, but I'm really uncomfortable and I'm nervous about it. Okay, great. Maybe then you can be vulnerable yourself and share, you know, I had a similar thing and I went and this is my experience and maybe it's worth trying for you.

35:28 - Jessi Beyer Or maybe it's a logistical challenge like well I don't know how to afford it. Okay, great. Let's find some affordable options together like you just get that information when you invite those conversations with how about have you thought about different conversations like that. Sorrybut um that's what kind of happens when you start to invite those conversations with how questions and what about questions and tell me about questions is you invite this collaborative environment. You've reached that point of alliance where they feel heard and understood based on your active listening skills that you've used.

36:22 - Carrie Rickert You know, it's interesting because as you were saying that, I recognize that I do this a lot with my kids, you know, because children should feel validated in their feelings also. And so I do a lot of, okay, And, you know, like, maybe there's more. And if there's more, I just sit and listen. And if there's not more, I say, oh, okay, so what do you think? Do you feel like there's something you should do about that? You know, and so it sounds to me like what you're saying is curiosity is so important here.

37:09 - Carrie Rickert Because curiosity isn't threatening.

37:14 - Jessi Beyer I love that. I love how you said that. And yeah, gosh, I can't even, I can't even follow that. That was, that was so good. And, and I guess I'll try with saying that not only are you leading with curiosity, but what that does is it allows the person to tell you what's important to them. Because if you come in with, this is what we need to talk about, or this is the information that I need, maybe you're missing something entirely that you have no idea about that could totally change the conversation or change the perception of this person's struggles.

37:46 - Jessi Beyer And so when you do lead with that curiosity, and you do lead with those open-ended questions, you're inviting that person to take the conversation where they feel is most important. And you may find out something about them that you never would have if you just came in with like closed-ended question,

38:00 - Jessi Beyer Do this, do that type of conversation.

38:02 - Carrie Rickert Right. And, and yet I know also from experiences so hard, it is so hard.

38:09 - Jessi Beyer Yep.

38:10 - Carrie Rickert Especially when you, I mean, everybody has their own stuff going on, right? Stressed and you're worried about the person that you're caring for, right? It's so hard to take the time to listen when what you really want to do is just make it better. So that we can move on to more pleasant things for everybody, right?

38:43 - Jessi Beyer Yes.

38:44 - Carrie Rickert And that isn't that actually makes things take longer in the long run. Because people feel like, oh, wow, they don't actually care about me. They just want to get through this and get done.

39:05 - Jessi Beyer And it damages your relationship with that person. Because. Even.

39:08 - Carrie Rickert And I. And I, I know I've made those mistakes, right? I mean, I think we all at some point in our lives, right, made the mistake of rushing people to a solution. Instead of allowing them to come to it themselves or come to it with you. So then I think the challenge becomes when you're supporting someone, giving yourself some grace too, that you're not always going to do it right. And it's not going to be perfect.

39:43 - Jessi Beyer It's not going to be perfect. And what happens when you start Approaching it from this mindset of I'm gonna fix it. I have the solution I have the answer if only they would just listen to me is you get your ego tied up in their healing journey That's exactly what happened to me when I was in that relationship. I talked about at the very beginning was I was his Everything.

40:04 - Jessi Beyer I was his confidant. I was his support system. It didn't matter what time of the day or what he needed I was gonna do it because my identity was was keeping him happy and keeping him alive. Like, I didn't even know who I was. I wake up in the morning, I think about him. I go to sleep at night, I think about him. Everything is about trying to keep him happy and alive. And what that does is when he has a setback, when he has a really rough night, when he does try to kill himself, that is now a personal flaw of mine.

40:35 - Jessi Beyer I failed. I wasn't good enough. I wasn't enough for him to keep living for. And of course, these are all very distorted, unhealthy cognitions and perhaps at the extreme end of the spectrum.

40:47 - Jessi Beyer But when you start to attach your solutions to their outcomes, you can kind of start to go down this route. And in addition to that, you can kind of start to shove them down this route of you don't actually know best. I know best. Listen to me. Just do what I say. And for trauma survivors, they've already had their agency taken away by some traumatic event. And now you're coming in on top of it and being like,

41:09 - Jessi Beyer No, no, no, no, no. Just do what I say. I know this, listen to me, you don't know anything. That's just exacerbating that whole problem that they're struggling with. So I'm really glad you brought this up because it is so important to mentally and emotionally detach yourself from the outcome of their healing journey, but don't contribute to that happening by trying to shovel these solutions down their throat when you don't know their whole story and their whole experience.

41:33 - Carrie Rickert Well, and even when you do, or you think you do, like when, you know, say it's one of your kids, you know, like you've been through every step of the journey with them. So you think you know, you don't always, because you aren't having the conversations in their heads that they're having. Right. And it's so important to be mindful of curiosity and asking questions and validating what they're feeling. And like you said, detaching from the outcome. And yet I know for parents, that is really, really hard.

42:20 - Carrie Rickert It's hard to detach from the outcome. I mean, in my own healing journey from my physical trauma, my mom was there. I mean, I was 37 when I was in my car accident and my mom was there every step of the way. And if I had a setback, I think she felt like she wasn't supportive enough or she should have been there longer or whatever. And that wasn't the case at all. It just is how it happened. She also is a rehab and ICU nurse. So she has long been attached to the outcome of physical trauma, right? And it's so hard, but it's especially hard if it's your child and or somebody that or your spouse or, you know, your parent, somebody that you love, that you feel like, you know, so well.

43:27 - Carrie Rickert There's a lot you don't know, right? There's still, because we are all individuals and there's a lot we don't know because we're not having the conversations in their heads.

43:43 - Jessi Beyer You're absolutely right.

43:45 - Carrie Rickert And it's, you're going to make mistakes. You are and and it's so important to be mindful of that and take time to go. Okay, I'm going to approach this in the best way that I can, but you have to really think about it because it's easy to get caught up in the, I'm going to fix this. I'm going to fix it. It's all going to be okay. And that's not your job.

44:22 - Jessi Beyer What I want to make really clear for people who are in supportive roles is that even if you do it right, even if you do it perfectly, it's still going to be hard. I don't want to give the impression that, oh, if you master these active listening skills and you never get attached and you hold the space perfectly, that you're not going to be affected by this loved one struggles.

44:41 - Carrie Rickert Oh no.

44:41 - Jessi Beyer That's not the case.

44:42 - Carrie Rickert Right.

44:43 - Jessi Beyer Absolutely will. Because you love them and that's why you're in such a good position to be a support system for them. But don't think that if you're struggling that somehow you're doing it wrong. There's, it's going to be hard. It's going to be hard because their healing journey is going to be a roller coaster. There's going to be ups and downs and loop-de-loops and it's going to go backwards and then it's going to fall off the face of the earth for a little bit and then maybe come back and you're going to feel those, no matter how attached you are.

45:11 - Jessi Beyer Which is why when I'm talking to people about this, I always want to make sure that they have some other support system on the back end. You know, when I talk about the concept of holding the space, it's not, okay, I'm going to hold it for Carrie and then We're done. Great. The space is held. I'm holding it for Carrie. Sure. But then my mom's holding it for me and her partner's holding it for her. And there's this whole chain so that we don't get in this dynamic like I did in the relationship that I talked about earlier, where we're relying on each other.

45:41 - Jessi Beyer Where I'm holding the space for him, but I don't have anyone holding the space for me. So all of my stuff is kind of boiling over. And then he's like sort of trying to help with that, but then he's also in his own stuff and relying on me. And it just, it gets into this very toxic dynamic. So recognize it's going to be hard. Recognize there are things that you can do to make it easier and skills that you can learn to be a better support system, but recognize that you're still going to feel it and make sure that you have someone or something or someone and something.

46:09 - Jessi Beyer On the back end to support. Through this process as well.

46:11 - Carrie Rickert You. Right, right, it's that whole, like, if you don't take care of yourself, you can't take care of anybody else.

46:21 - Jessi Beyer And I'll just, sorry, just to jump in here as well, I hate that. I get so angry every time I'm on an airplane and they're like, if in the event of an emergency the masks descend, please put your mask on first before helping others. I am not that person. I will mask the entire airplane before I put my own mask on. Like that is just who I am inside. And so I think people can hear that and be like, Okay, yeah, sure, in concept, that's great. But like, I'm fine.

46:46 - Jessi Beyer I'm just going to carry through. I'm just going to be there for them. Because that's exactly what I did. And so to those people, my challenge to you is that you will be a better support system if you take care of yourself. Like, let's just forget about the benefit of taking care of yourself for a second. You will do a better job at the thing that you are trying to do, which is take care of this person, if you are also taking care of yourself. So Carrie, you're 100% right. Put your own mask on before helping others.

47:13 - Jessi Beyer But I just wanted to throw that in there because I know for me, if I would have heard that, I would have brushed it off. Like, okay, sure, yeah, fine. Maybe for other people, but I can handle it. And sometimes you can't. Yep. Absolutely. One hundred percent.

47:22 - Carrie Rickert Me too. I learned that the hard way too. Oh, wow. Jessi, thank you so much. This has been so great. So if there was one thing you would like to leave our listeners with today, what would that be?

47:43 - Jessi Beyer I would tell people to not give up on your healing. I think in this world that we live in today, this kind of self-help top psychology type of world, it can seem like you're doing it wrong if it takes longer than one intervention.

48:01 - Jessi Beyer Like, oh, get this journal and answer these questions. And by the end of this 30-day journal, everything's going to be better. And then when it's not, it can feel like you failed. And it can be even harder to try again, to try a new modality, to try a new exercise. And so to the people that are listening that have maybe been too scared to try anything because of the stigma and the shame and the difficulty of healing, all the way to the people who have tried so many things and feel like there's nothing out there that's going to work for me.

48:34 - Jessi Beyer So I'm, I'm done. Like I, I can't try another thing. I just ask you to try one more time, try one more modality, try one more therapist, try one more intervention, because I am someone who has given up on healing, who thought I was never going to make it. And I'm also someone who did. And it is worth it to keep investing in yourself and to keep trying and to keep working towards healing. And it's going to be hard. And I'm like getting choked up saying this, but like, it's going to be hard.

49:08 - Jessi Beyer It's going to be so hard. It's going to be the hardest thing you've ever done in your life. But if you take one thing away from this episode, It is just to try one more time. Pick one of the modalities that we talked about today that you were like, that sounds interesting. That resonates a little bit and just try one more time because you are worth it. You are worth healing. You are worth having that life where your trauma does not dictate every move that you make and it is possible for you.

49:35 - Jessi Beyer So just don't give up on yourself.

49:39 - Carrie Rickert I love that. Thank you. I think that's such an important reminder for everybody. Thank you. Thank you for being here today. Thank you for sharing all of your wonderful wisdom. I appreciate it.

49:52 - Jessi Beyer Thank you for having me and for providing the space for people like me to do exactly that.