Transformational Trauma and Healing: Wading Through Compounded Trauma to get to Healing

Please take a listen to my conversation with Anne Songy. She's a fascinating individual who is working to using her compounded trauma to help others. 

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Transcript

3:48 - Carrie Rickert Hi, Anne. Thank you so much for being here today and spending time with us.

4:05 - Anne Songy Well, thank you, Carrie. I'm so glad to be here.

4:11 - Carrie Rickert Stranger to trauma, and obviously this podcast is about trauma. So why don't you start with your earliest experiences?

4:24 - Anne Songy Sure. Well, as you know, well, no trauma comes in the capital T's and the small T's and I've had several medium sized T's as well. So I think they compounded effect is interesting, but I would say, you know, my first midsize trauma, I was quite small toddler, I think, and I had spinal meningitis and it really, I had not really appreciated that as a trauma. Prior to current events. But I've now realized it was the spinal tap, the staying in the hospital for two weeks, the whole thing. So quite sick actually.

5:12 - Anne Songy So that would be my first memory of sort of a middle trauma. But I would say as I got older, by the time I was 14, My father, who was an alcoholic, who was supposed to be in recovery, I'm not positive he was, he.

5:40 - Anne Songy Killed himself when I was 14. And it was a, to say a shock to a 14-year-old would be an understatement. A formative year for a girl.

5:56 - Carrie Rickert Oh, yeah.

5:56 - Anne Songy And even though my father wasn't a super great guy, he it it was just part of what who we were is to have a father. It's part of who we were. We were a big family with a mom and a dad. And we you know, we were part of the community. And and back then that was in 80 in the early 80s. It was something that was a little bit embarrassing. There was a stigma.

6:32 - Carrie Rickert Okay.

6:33 - Anne Songy A stigma attached.

6:34 - Carrie Rickert And sadly, I think it probably still is a stigma.

6:38 - Anne Songy To a certain degree,

6:39 - Anne Songy Yes.

6:39 - Carrie Rickert I think.

6:40 - Carrie Rickert It's getting better. We're working toward understanding death by suicide and how that impacts people and talking about it more because, and, and, you know, part of this podcast, the purpose of it is to talk about the traumas that we have, because there are so many people who have experienced similar things and are afraid.

7:10 - Carrie Rickert To talk about it, or there's a stigma around it. And, you know, so.

7:17 - Anne Songy I would say, unfortunately, there is a growing club. Of those of us who have loved ones who have committed suicide.

7:26 - Carrie Rickert Okay.

7:26 - Anne Songy That's unfortunate. The fortunate part of that, of course, is that it, it means that we, there are more of us to say it out loud. And I have always said, I say it to anybody who has someone who is struggling with mental health or someone who has lost someone by suicide. I long for a world where we gather around people before the suicide, where a mother can scream from the mountaintops, my child is in trouble and I need help. And friends and family come over with casseroles and cards and love and hugs.

8:07 - Anne Songy And that happens before it happens rather than after at the funeral. And that's no fault to anybody. It really isn't. It's just the way we are as a society. We all shout it from the mountaintops.

8:21 - Carrie Rickert It's our systems.

8:22 - Anne Songy It is our systems.

8:23 - Anne Songy And I really long for a world where somebody puts on Facebook, I'm, I am drowning here please help me. And people would be surprised at how quickly people would come to their, to their aid. I know that there are drawbacks to that I know that there are employment drawbacks to that and you know when if you say out loud I'm struggling. You know your employers, you know, looking to and I get all that I really do but I, but wouldn't it be great if we lived in a world where, where this was not something that we waited until afterwards to to ask for help.

9:03 - Anne Songy Yeah, and I think so many people do. And so after my father's death, that was, it's interesting how you deal with trauma, right? As in the different stages of your life and having the experiences that you've had before that,

9:17 - Anne Songy Right? So at that time at 14, I was limited and I was trained well by my mother to, to ignore it until it goes away. And so that's what we did. We were survivors and we, knew that people were talking about it, but we did not, you know, we didn't even have a picture of him up in the house. We didn't.

9:44 - Carrie Rickert So you put a good face on it and kept on going.

9:47 - Anne Songy And did not, you know, we went through the motions. She took us, dragged us to, to a counselor and things like that. But it was, there were some dynamics there that were not, not conducive to, to, to long-term help. One of which is that is was the one thousand nine hundred eighty seconds and, you know, let's face it, you. Know. Things were, things,

10:07 - Carrie Rickert Things. Are.

10:09 - Anne Songy Things were bleak in the, in the mental health world back then.

10:14 - Anne Songy Then I would say, you know, I got through high school okay. I had a great group of friends who were fun. And, you know, we, I, because I had chosen at that time in my life to, to, to ignore, you know, to, to just get on with it as, you know, you, you have to, what else was I going to do at the time? And I was blessed with really good friends and we had a great time. But then once I, once I started college, And I was not sort of forced to be with people all you know every day at school and I was in a different in a different state.

10:51 - Anne Songy I went to Ole Miss, but I grew up in Baton Rouge and you know all this. And during that time, I, I found the joy of Isolation. So I isolated a lot, and I ended up coming back to LSU.

11:06 - Anne Songy When I came back to LSU, my brother, who had struggled with mental illness his entire life. Outbursts, a lot of wringing of our hands. What are we going to do about Randy? You know, brilliant child somewhere down the road. I suspect probably drugs had something to do with it. He became a different person. Maybe it was when dad, I'm not sure, but nevertheless, he killed himself. When he was 24 and I was 19. And so that, to me, a got short shrift in the trauma department in the in the morning department in all that because it was even more of an embarrassment to the family than daddy was because his was out of the blue, out of nowhere.

12:07 - Anne Songy Oh my gosh, those poor girls, that poor wife, you know, the whole thing. But when Randy died, it's funny how, when that happens, people are like, hmm, what's going on over there? You know, that kind of thing. And so it was, it was, if I thought nobody talked about my dad, it went like crazy when my brother died. Literally it was like he didn't exist. And so, and on top of that, we children, I had two sisters at the time, we didn't have time. We were so still mourning unsatisfactorily for our father that we are for that life that we lost when he died, that we really never got a chance to mourn our brother.

12:56 - Anne Songy And I'm just recently we can talk about that in a while, but I'm just recently re. Um, acquainting myself with his memory and with and how he, you know, he poor thing, you know, he, he had short shrift. And so when that happened, that really, that was a really a turning point for me, I felt like at that point, you know, you feel this way, particularly with with, I mean, I'm sorry, with suicide. I felt very much like a curse, you know, like there was a curse, like there was something wrong with our family, that there was something defective about us and therefore me.

13:37 - Anne Songy And so it just created a situation where I isolated even more, you know, and things like that. And, and again, we can go through like sort of the different stages of, of, um,

13:47 - Anne Songy Or ways that you deal with trauma, particularly different types. But for me, the, the over, I might have tried a bunch of different things, but isolation was definitely a big one for me.

14:00 - Anne Songy And then, you know, fast forward, there were some hiccups along the way that I would say were not easy for me, for anyone. But I would say that at some point when we were, you know, my mother did the best she could. And she was a lovely woman. Everybody loved her. She ended up moving in with my husband and myself in her last years. And we took care of her and loved her.

14:28 - Anne Songy And she was literally the only person in my family who's ever died a normal honorable death, like a death that you could put your arms around and be okay with.

14:44 - Anne Songy And she died.

14:47 - Anne Songy Not beautifully because she died of COPD, and if you've never seen somebody die of COPD, count your blessings. But she died surrounded by her daughters, and she You know she we talk, we we drank champagne in the last 10 hours of her life. She asked for a glass of champagne. She wanted to toast life, and she did, and we did. And which is so typical of my mom who loved the finer things. And it was beautiful. It really was. And so when after she died, I really felt like And, you know, and my sister, my oldest sister, Kathy, and I, we would joke actually about the fact that we got all of our trauma over early in life.

15:29 - Anne Songy You know, like we, we paid our dues. We, you know, everybody else, other suckers in the world are going to have to have trauma in their adult lives,

15:38 - Anne Songy Not us. We're, we're going to be fine because we got all our ours out ahead of time. And, and we, we kind of have. We have to have a sense of humor about life.

15:48 - Anne Songy And that's one of the ways we do it. Code,

15:51 - Carrie Rickert Absolutely.

15:51 - Anne Songy Right,

15:51 - Carrie Rickert That is, that is how I've gotten through.

15:55 - Carrie Rickert Most things.

15:55 - Anne Songy Right. Yes. And so we became very close as sisters, the three of us and Kathy and I in particular, and just we're really starting to talk about our trauma as children.

16:15 - Anne Songy We're really starting to talk about the ugly parts, the ugly pieces of it. And Kathy and I, in fact, a year ago or two now probably started talking about possibly telling our story in a way that would be helpful to others. Because losing two immediate family members to suicide is rough, but it's not unheard of And so it's something that we would have loved to help others cope with. But unfortunately, Kathy was the head of school at the Covenant School in Nashville. And last March 27th, there was a school shooting there and she was killed in the school shooting.

17:06 - Anne Songy And she was a lovely, wonderful woman who had more to give than anybody else I know, honestly. And so today I sit here and we are re-examining the way we look at trauma. And when I say we, I mean my sister and I, my husband and I, we're sort of re-examining it. And it is the most, even though suicide is very traumatic and sudden and violent and all of those things, this is by far the worst of all because she did not choose that. And she, it was chosen for her. And she was the whole reason why she was murdered is because she left the safety of her office and went outside to go try and do something about it.

18:13 - Anne Songy And

18:14 - Carrie Rickert Because of her giving nature and her care for the kids, she was.

18:19 - Anne Songy Absolutely 100%. And in all honesty, you know, care, if there was anybody in the world who could have helped. The shooter, it would have been Cathy. And everybody would agree. Anybody who knows her would agree. She would be the one that people would call to say, please help my daughter. Because not only did Cathy have the ability, by the way, everybody else calls her Catherine, but we call her Cathy. She had the ability to hone in on a problem particularly because she was an educator, and then find the resources to do something about it.

19:03 - Anne Songy It was incredible. It was really incredible.

19:05 - Anne Songy So anyway, it is a double whammy.

19:07 - Carrie Rickert She was perfect for her job.

19:10 - Anne Songy Yes, yes. And ironically enough, would have been somebody who would have helped this person beyond. Yeah, she would have been helpful to her. So Um, so that is where I am today. And I have shifted the paradigm of my, of my mourning of my trauma of my. Of the moving forward part looks different than it ever has before. For one thing, I'm the age I am, and I have the years of experience and knowledge that I do. But I think also when you think about trauma, for me, the interesting part of my particular trauma is the compounding trauma.

20:09 - Anne Songy So I don't just have the one that was extreme and horrible. Like for example, I wasn't there, and there were a lot of people who were, and a lot of people who were close to Kathy.

20:21 - Anne Songy Who were, they are experiencing a totally different trauma than I am. Even if it's their first,

20:28 - Anne Songy It's a terrible trauma. But I'm really interested in the fact that because I have these previous things, events that have happened and all of the yuckiness in between right you know you know that you don't really talk about a lot. I have a different perspective. Now, of this, this particular trauma. It switched from isolation, although I still struggle with that. I think a lot of people do have had that kind of experience. But it switched from isolation to pursuit of knowledge, pursuit of truth.

21:10 - Anne Songy And so.

21:11 - Anne Songy When I say that, I mean, what now? I've never said that to myself before, but what now? I have this thing, I have this story, It has only changed my life in the fact that it has. Grieved me in a place that will, will never ever be healed, but it's not a husband. It's not a child, right? These are my family members of

21:41 - Anne Songy My family of origin. What does that look like, What do I do now? This can't be it is what I'm thinking after Kathy died. This can't be it.

21:54 - Anne Songy This can't be my story. Like I lost all these people and I'm still living the same life I did before. So I had this-.

22:03 - Carrie Rickert Let me just ask a question. So in your thinking of, this can't just be my life the same. So whereas when your father died and when your brother died, the role that you had to play was to carry on and be the dutiful child and sister and we'll just pretend like none of that happened, right?

22:30 - Carrie Rickert We're gonna just avoid the bad stuff. But now that Kathy has died, you are looking back at all of it and the combination of all of it together and going, yeah, I'm not just gonna carry on and pretend like this didn't happen. So tell me what you're doing now that is different.

22:58 - Anne Songy Well, it's actually unfolding as we speak.

23:03 - Anne Songy What I'm doing now is I'm doing instead of not doing. And so before I would just not do, I would just smooth things over and make it look as much like our old family as possible to other people.

23:15 - Anne Songy Still do all the things I'm supposed to do and all that. But today, a, I talk about it. All the time. I talk about it to everybody I can find. And not only just in my personal relationships, my passing relationships, podcasts, speaking, things like that.

23:34 - Carrie Rickert And

23:35 - Anne Songy The speaking can take a form from anywhere. It depends on who the group is. And it could be anything from trauma to motivation. Like, look, let me tell you how wonderful my sister was. You know that kind of thing right to faith and how my faith has changed from this. And so I'm doing a lot of that, but in in the big overall. Overhead picture of this is in my doing, I'm investigating the different ways that people do things with this type of thing, right? So the first thing that comes to my mind is people who become advocates for X, Y, or Z, right?

24:20 - Anne Songy So here's the rub with that for me, is that what is the advocacy that I'm going to be speaking about, right? It could be, right? And

24:36 - Anne Songy I get offers to be advocate for these things, by the way, this is where these are coming from It could be guns, either side of the story, right? It could be pro, you know, right. It could be rights or, you know, I wish everybody the best of luck with that. That is not my fight to fight. It's not my fight. It's not my calling. I could be an advocate for gender rights, gender care, gender equality, things like that.

25:13 - Anne Songy Because, oh, by the way, because the shooter did identify as trans. So it.

25:20 - Carrie Rickert Was.

25:21 - Anne Songy A woman, a biological woman who had just recently started dabbling in wanting to be, use the pronouns he, him. And the only reason why I do not is because her parents did not her best friend did not and she did not refer to herself like that in her final texts. And journal entries. So I think, you know, I'm cognizant that that's a thing, but I just, this is where I've ended up. So I could be that, but that, again, that is that's not, that is not my fight to fight. It's just not. And so, which sort of leaves me in the mental health category, because no matter which way you cut this, Out of a family of six, four have died, but three, 50% of my family has died due to mental illness of some kind.

26:24 - Anne Songy And if you. Want. And if you hone in on that further, actually they've all died of suicide because The

26:24 - Carrie Rickert Whether. They. Own or someone else's.

26:37 - Anne Songy Shooter in Kathy's instance, that was her whole reason for doing what she did. She wanted to die. And so what would have happened had that person been able to either get help or her, her loved ones, her parents, whoever it was, were able to get the right help for her. My understanding is that they tried. What does that say?

27:05 - Carrie Rickert Okay.

27:08 - Anne Songy Do you know? So I, and I, from my own experience, I know it is, It is. Accessible kind of hell to try and find the right kind of

27:09 - Carrie Rickert And An Mental health is inaccessible for so many different ways.

27:25 - Anne Songy But even those with those of us with resources, right, the right one, knowing how to shop shop, you know, knowing that you can say no, if you don't like one, but then, you know, you think about people who do have the resources to do it, it's it is, it is a ridiculous feat during a time when you can't even think straight. And so, you know, I think, you know, and I've talked to so many people in the mental health field throughout all this, and they all agree a, the, the, the therapy and the counseling that used to be available to those of us who experienced trauma in the eighties and nineties was abysmal.

28:07 - Anne Songy And that is nothing bad on any of the people who they were just doing what they were taught and, as it turns out, that's really not what we needed and so not that particular brand and so. Thank goodness, I think it's getting better with trauma informed therapy is getting a lot better. And so, but it still doesn't change the fact that it is difficult to find, or even if it's free somewhere or available somewhere that's difficult to find. We have a wonderful free service here in the Acadiana area of Louisiana.

28:45 - Anne Songy It's fabulous, but it's under the hospice umbrella. So people think that it has to be having to do with hospice, but it really doesn't. It's just, you know, loss of a loved one. And sometimes when that happens, people become suicidal. And so there is a connection there that could be had if people knew about it. That's just one example.

29:07 - Carrie Rickert There are, So I find this, and this is mental health related too, but my son has special needs and I have found throughout his life that there are resources available. They are just not blatantly available. I have found through my own trauma experience that there are resources available They just are not blatantly available. So you don't know. And when you are going through a mental health crisis or going through a grieving process, the last thing you are able to do is look for resources.

30:01 - Carrie Rickert You just need them to be readily available.

30:04 - Anne Songy That's exactly right. You need it to be so second nature to be able to find someone like that, as if you were trying to find anything else.

30:13 - Carrie Rickert A dentist.

30:15 - Anne Songy A dentist or whatever. But, you know, so that would be the logical route that I would go if I went the advocacy route, right?

30:27 - Anne Songy Again, I don't know. I'm investigating that. I'm speaking with legislators. I'm speaking with other people who are in the advocacy field. I'm, you know, all these things. I spoke to the most interesting man who has a national organization who that is, he has a background in gun, I don't know whether it's manufacturing or distribution, it's their family business, but he now instead has an organization that helps to prevent suicide by firearm. And so as specifically what he's trying to, you know, that is such a niche, right?

31:05 - Anne Songy That is a specific thing that he's doing. And I envy people who have that, that light bulb moment where they know exactly what they want to do with their grief, you know? So, but that is part of this process. And it's, it's interesting in its own right that I have not, you know, have not quite discovered that yet. And so the other route is, you know, besides advocacy would be, you know, trying to deal with it in a spiritual way, you know, and trying to meditate it away or do, you know, whatever.

31:43 - Anne Songy And I'm a proponent of meditation. It has calmed me in many, many, many areas. And so I'm always open for that, always. And one of the biggest changes that I have discovered in the last nine months since this happened is that my tepid, lukewarm, watered-down faith has turned into a full-fledged, blossoming, really textural faith. In Christ. And so that's fabulous. You know, that is absolutely saved me actually. And it gives me a reason to have hope and a reason to listen instead of run around like a chicken with my head cut off.

32:36 - Anne Songy You know, just listen, just sit and listen, you know, and that's saved me a lot of heartache during this time. And it's not just for that reason.

32:44 - Anne Songy And it certainly wasn't a situation where I was at my lowest low and I didn't know where else to turn. It wasn't like that at all. It was truly just a, it was almost like I turned a corner. I was like, Oh, there, you know, that's beautiful. That's I'm, I'm home right here. You know, while I figure out what I'm going to do, I'm going to have a deep faith and I'm going to listen.

33:07 - Carrie Rickert And that's where you feel safe.

33:09 - Anne Songy And that's where I feel safe and, and, and where I find my answers and all that. So, um, so that's, to me, that's a huge part of this. And of course, therapy, as we discussed is a huge part of this. I was lucky enough to already have sussed out and found the most brilliant, uh, trauma-informed therapist, uh, to help me with my childhood trauma. So that's interesting. I had already started kind of thinking about that even before this trauma, right? I just kind of thought about that. So that when this happened, she was already in place and we've been working from that.

33:47 - Carrie Rickert And that's so fortunate that you had that in place.

33:52 - Anne Songy Oh my gosh.

33:54 - Carrie Rickert And it is interesting how life kind of lays out the map for you, right?

34:00 - Anne Songy Yes.

34:02 - Carrie Rickert You know, you had, it sounds like you had gotten to a place and you said earlier that you had discussed with your sister, Kathy, what your early childhood traumas had, how they had impacted you. And that addressing them was a good idea. Not knowing, of course, that you would have and even more challenging trauma ahead. How wonderful that you had that in place, like that must have felt at least somewhat hopeful.

34:47 - Anne Songy That.

34:48 - Carrie Rickert You had a place to go.

34:51 - Anne Songy Yes. And also a blessing that it was going to be the right thing to do when I decided to go ahead and do it, which I'm doing now. I'm writing now about my story. And it is a struggle because, of course, Unlike your trauma, where it's personal, other than, you know, the effects on your loved ones and of course your son and everything. Mine is,

35:22 - Anne Songy Is family and I am very, very careful about what I divulge that my only remaining family member, my sister would find offensive. And so, or, or just, she wouldn't want. And so, but I have her here to ask and with Kathy, I knew because of our conversations, I know she, she's like, she was wanting to tell it all, you know? And so I know I have her blessing and it's fine. And I can tell whatever I need to tell where I think that I'm going to help, you know, and if I'm being honest, it's not just everybody out there in the world, because who knows what will happen with this book.

36:09 - Anne Songy It may just sit in my drawer, but I really am determined to break the generational trauma that occurs when a parent, you know, I have a, I have a 30 year old son who grew up with a parent who had childhood trauma. He didn't have that much trauma, you know, But he had a parent who did. And that affects, it affects children.

36:41 - Anne Songy For sure.

36:42 - Carrie Rickert Because it impacts how you react to anything. And that impacts how you parent.

36:45 - Anne Songy Absolutely. Yes. When you come from a place of trauma, a place of, oh, it could all go south any minute now, fear, the whole thing. They grow up fearful people who, or the opposite, maybe even. But, um, so in, in Daniel is his name and I, we talk about it all the time. We have great conversations about it and I feel positive that because I'm talking about it. Unlike my family of origin where we whispered about it as children in our clubhouses,

37:19 - Anne Songy But we didn't talk about it. I am, I think that his children will benefit from that. I think that his children will not have to wonder what in the heck is going on. And you know, it wasn't until recently that we put our finger on what it was because Daniel has had his own set of problems that he's very open about. He's a recovering addict who now works in the industry and he is amazing, beautiful, person who has just figured out a way to, to be joyful and at peace and help others. And, and I'm, I commend him a hundred percent.

38:01 - Anne Songy We have talked a lot about, you know, what is, what is the malaise about? What is the, you know, that kind of thing. And it finally occurred to me,

38:09 - Anne Songy I mean, it hit me like a ton of bricks and I didn't even know what generational trauma was. I had no idea what it was. And I said, I bet it was hard growing up. The only son, and at that time I was single, I was only a single mother, with a depressed, anxious mother who had trauma. And he admitted, yes, it was very difficult for him. And I hate that for him, but I love that we can talk about it and that it can end with him. Hopefully, you know, and so generational trauma has become a thing that I've really been interested in.

38:53 - Anne Songy You're not in the buzzword kind of way because it is a little buzz thing now going right.

38:57 - Carrie Rickert Sure.

38:59 - Anne Songy But in the real way how it affects my son, you know,

39:02 - Carrie Rickert And

39:05 - Anne Songy So that's the kind of thing that I hope that this book will do is to say, listen, enough with the secrets, enough with the shush, shush. We're going to talk about this. This is a serious issue that we are going to talk about as a family. I come from a family where this, this, and this happened and it wasn't okay. And as a consequence, we had some big T traumas that ended up in the newspaper, you know? And as far as Kathy is concerned,

39:36 - Anne Songy I cannot make sense out of that one yet, but it's only been nine months. And I don't know that you ever do when it comes to something that is so incredibly senseless and just unheard of But I do know that her, influence on me is so immense that I feel her in every single word that I write. And she had that effect on people. I mean, she had 2,600 people at her funeral. So she was one of those. So I feel like that's where this comes in. Like like, you know, she is there with me writing this. And I know that she approved of that.

40:24 - Anne Songy I know that she wants to be loud and proud about it because there is no shame. We didn't have anything to do with this. We didn't have anything to do with this. And I think that's just such an important thing for people to know, you know?

40:43 - Carrie Rickert I think so many people take what happens in their families and internalize it and look at it as, oh, this is something I should be ashamed of This is something I should hide. When reality is very little that happens when you are a young child, is actually about and therefore, it is not yours to hide. It sounds to me like Kathy was a very big part of you being able to go back and heal from these things and move forward and heal from your generational trauma because she agreed with you and it wasn't, you weren't by yourself in, I'm not gonna hide this anymore, Right.

41:54 - Anne Songy Exactly.

41:55 - Carrie Rickert It's hard when, when everyone in your family is saying, Oh no, no, we don't talk about that. We pretend that doesn't exist. We are not, we are not talking about that. What would other people think? You know, like, you know, I have had situations that I have written about that I have had a lot of backlash from not my family of origin, but my children's family of origin that, you know, from their other side of their family that has been, why would you talk about that? What would happen if, you know, how is this going to impact them?

42:37 - Carrie Rickert And My feeling, personally, is that If someone is not going to accept all of who you are, then they're not the right people for you.

43:01 - Anne Songy And it is such an easy thing, right, to get caught up in that thinking that I cannot say the truth because of what others will think. And particularly, and also.

43:17 - Anne Songy Being, depending on where you're from, that kind of thing, there's certain communities that are more like that than others. And I can't tell you how much I struggle with this. It's, it's one of my biggest struggles writing this book. It's where I get stuck the most is yeah, but You know, do I want people to know that and Are they worthy of that knowledge? In my life, have they earned the right to know that of me, the people I know, you know, and so I go back and forth about that. I honestly do.

43:56 - Anne Songy And I, I have discovered through all of this that people are inherently just very nice people. And, um, I don't, I just think that like you said, you, you suss out who's, who's not nice. Who's not worthy of you, of you, who's not worthy of your friendship or whatever. And I will get very strong about that.

44:18 - Anne Songy And then go back the other way. I get very strong about my conviction about that. And then I'll go to a function in my hometown and see somebody's mother who happened to, who's clutching her pearls or something. And I just think, oh gosh, do I really want that woman reading about my personal business? But it is again, something that you decide and you marry it and you move forward because otherwise you will what if yourself to death and you will never do it. You'll never write it.

44:52 - Carrie Rickert And so, Anne, let me ask you, because I found this when I was writing my book, and actually when I wrote my blog before, as I was healing from my traumatic brain injury early on, I found that writing was such a catharsis for me. It helped me to process all of the things I was thinking about and all of the things that I was worried about. You know, whether or not someone ever read it at that point didn't really matter to me. It was, this is how, because I'm a word person, I like words, I like to, you know, I like to write, I like to listen.

45:43 - Carrie Rickert Words are important.

45:45 - Carrie Rickert You know, for me, that was the way that I healed from anything because I, similarly to you, I tend to isolate. When I am feeling unsafe or insecure, I will cut everybody off, even the people who I know love me the most. And would support me in a heartbeat. I'm like, nope, I'm doing it myself. I got this, I can do this. And so writing became so important to me as a way of actually staying in touch with what I was thinking and feeling. Right,

46:36 - Anne Songy Because you didn't have someone that you were bouncing that off of because you were isolating at the time. You didn't have someone to talk to about it. Yes.

46:44 - Carrie Rickert You know, and reality is I probably did. I just,

46:47 - Anne Songy Well, yes, you thought you didn't.

46:49 - Carrie Rickert I thought I didn't. Right. So do you find that writing this book, even if, you know, you get to the end of it and you look at it and go, yeah, I don't need to publish that. I feel so much better. Like, do you feel better as you're writing?

47:10 - Anne Songy Um, it that's more complicated than you would think it is for me, I, I am. Struggling a lot with writing it. I don't struggle with writing. I've been writing my entire life. I love it. I'm like you a words person. Um, I am struggling with, uh, I know what it is. It is the desire, the strong desire to get it right. The strong desire to say it the right way. In the right words in the right order so that the most number of people, most importantly, my family. Get something from it and so it's sort of an overwhelming sense of responsibility almost.

48:01 - Anne Songy And that I noticed that I get before speaking engagements and stuff. I noticed, but that's of course, that's, you know, a 10 minute, 20 minute talk is way different than a 300 some odd page book. So, so I do struggle a lot with that. And I will say part of that is what has been my inability to decide whether or not I want to show my secrets and, um, I had a great,

48:32 - Anne Songy I had a turning point recently. I had a great conversation with one of my oldest friends who I adore and her family and my family grew up together. We, they, our fathers were in the same sort of, I don't know, young president's organization or something. And we went on trips all the time. Laurie and I were best friends and all through elementary school and good friends through through high school and I her mother. Susan is the one that I worry about the most. Because she adores my family.

49:13 - Anne Songy She adored my father, especially. And my father was not a good person. And so, and I think that will surprise people when they know that.

49:24 - Carrie Rickert So I- You don't want to break her heart.

49:28 - Anne Songy I didn't want to break her heart. That's exactly right. I didn't want to ruin that for her. And so I talked, to my friend and I said, I don't know what to do about this. And she said, you have to do it regardless of what it, yes, it will break mom's heart. Do you have to do it? Have lunch with my mom. Tell her read it or don't read it, but just know that this is, this is what's in it. And I thought that was really good advice. And I, she's, she's Lori's smart girl. So I'm going to take her advice and I'm just going to keep, keep plowing through.

50:04 - Anne Songy That's not to say every sort of detail of my life will be in print. That is not, again, necessary to tell my story. There are things that are necessary to tell the story completely, but there are a lot of things that aren't. So, you know, we'll get to that when we get to it. But my whole point in saying that is that I've really turned a corner. And that was recently that I had that conversation and I felt really, I've felt stronger writing since then.

50:31 - Carrie Rickert Si Then that's fantastic.

50:33 - Anne Songy Yes,

50:33 - Carrie Rickert I'm. Glad. You you had that.

50:34 - Anne Songy It is. Cathartic. It's one part cathartic to write and it's one part terrifying to write. And, um, that's kind of how I've been feeling ever since the very, my first decision to start. It's been that kind of ride, you know, but, um, I, I, I do think that it will just be that way until it's not anymore. And I just write through it, you know?

50:58 - Carrie Rickert Well, and I think that. Your choice of words, you said it feels like a responsibility.

51:09 - Anne Songy Which I understand is irrational, by the way.

51:12 - Anne Songy I feel that.

51:14 - Carrie Rickert So yes,

51:16 - Carrie Rickert And grew up being told that you're responsible for wearing the mask.

51:27 - Anne Songy Yes, for the image of family.

51:29 - Carrie Rickert So you are responsible for making sure that even though these bad things happen, we're going to. Like we're fine and everything's great and there's nothing at all going on. Nothing.

51:39 - Anne Songy Pretend. To see here. Yeah.

51:48 - Carrie Rickert Must feel like a responsibility to know that you are going against the family line, right?

52:00 - Anne Songy It is frightening to think of what my mother would say to me right now. I mean, I'm just being honest. It would it, you know, she would not, she would not approve, but she was also the key instigator of the secrecy. And so I take her advice now with a grain of salt. You know, be honest, you know.

52:22 - Carrie Rickert Well, and that is, I think, the ultimate in healing your generational trauma. So not so much that these bad things happened, but that you were encouraged regularly to pretend that they didn't, right?

52:46 - Anne Songy And expected, yes. Expected.

52:50 - Carrie Rickert Feel like you're gonna let people down by sharing your truth. That's a, you know, gosh, I hope that you can get past that. I mean,

53:03 - Anne Songy I. Will.

53:03 - Carrie Rickert Even. If even if you only let a few people read it, like you deserve to speak your truth.

53:14 - Anne Songy I do. And I have, I will say this, I have an overwhelming compulsion to do so. And that I have had to tamp down until I decided to do so. Right. And so usually my overwhelming compulsion wins. And so, especially when it's something that is not destructive or anything like that. And so I do think that I will at least write it. That way, and as many good people in my life have said, write it like that, and then go back and see what rings right with you and what doesn't, and you can edit it. This is not engraved in stone.

53:58 - Anne Songy It's not going out on the internet as you write it. It's just, you know. So I am moving forward like that. It is definitely, like I say, it is a torturous, wonderful, experience. And I've always been a little bit of a tortured writer, even when it's about silly things.

54:20 - Anne Songy I'm meticulous and torturous about it. So I think that that's just part of my process that I'm just going to have to work through. So but I am grateful, like you say, for all of this coming to a sharper focus for me. In a way that it never has before, and in a way that quite possibly might be able to help somebody, even if it's my family. To be able to put this secrecy and the craziness to sleep, just to put it to rest and move on with joy and peace, which has always been our desire. And it's just that when we were younger, we did it without doing the work.

55:14 - Anne Songy We acted like it without doing the actual work.

55:17 - Carrie Rickert Hey. We all know how that works out.

55:20 - Anne Songy It didn't work very well, I'm not sure. Why.

55:22 - Carrie Rickert Maybe. Just know.

55:23 - Anne Songy So it has been a journey that is not over. I know that. Truly, this grieving process of this most recent loss of Kathy has only just begun, even though it happened nine months ago. I literally spent the first five, six months just numb. I didn't do anything. In fact, I put on hiatus from work and I traveled a lot and things like that.

55:50 - Anne Songy I feel like I'm waking up now and I'm choosing consciousness. And that is a good start, right?

56:01 - Carrie Rickert That is a wonderful story. Thank you so much, Anne, for sharing your story with us. I think it is, as you said, it is so important to talk about these things so that everyone around us knows that secrets aren't really what helps us move forward.

56:25 - Anne Songy Not at all. And it was such a pleasure. I really appreciate the opportunity to express all this to you and to your listeners.

56:32 - Anne Songy And I'm just very hopeful that one little small thing of something that I said might help somebody.

56:40 - Carrie Rickert I have no doubt. So thank you.

56:43 - Anne Songy Awesome.

56:43 - Carrie Rickert You you have um, absolutely touched my heart. So thank you so much for your time today. And hopefully we can check in sometime at some point in the future.

56:55 - Anne Songy Awesome. I would love that. Thanks so much.

56:59 - Anne Songy Bye.