Transformational Trauma and Healing: Navigating a loved one's death by suicide

Join me for this important conversation about what happens in the aftermath of a loved one's death by suicide. Our guest Alexandra Wyman is the author of The Suicide Club: What to do when Someone You Love Chooses Death and host of the podcast The Widow's Club. 

To get in touch or to book Alexandra for a speaking engagement, visit her website at https://www.forwardtojoy.com/

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Transcript

3:03 Carrie Rickert Welcome, Alexandra. Thank you so much for being here today.

3:40 - Alexandra Wyman Oh, thank you, Carrie. It's a pleasure to be here.

3:44 - Carrie Rickert It's, it's really nice to have you. Our topic today feels very weighty. It's a heavy topic that a lott of people intentionally don't talk about, right? For a number of reasons that we will certainly get into. But I I'd like to start with why you have chosen to do the opposite. Why write a book and speak about your husband's death by suicide?

4:13 - Alexandra Wyman I, I think a big drive of it is that Sean just really internalized a lot of his experiences and his feelings and just took that on and I also was someone who did that. I still have to work through being able to not take on responsibility for other people's feelings. And I think we have an opportunity to talk and really say what we're feeling, what we're going through, and we can find connection with people who are more open to that than it. A was 1st release some of that energy around what we're feeling and to really recognize that we're all human beings, We, we all are navigating this thing called life.

4:50 - Alexandra Wyman We all have experiences that impact us negatively and rather than use the These experiences opportunities to separate from each other, but at least to kind of connect a little bit more and understand that we have more in common and maybe we can be a support to each as we figure it all out.

5:09 - Carrie Rickert couldn't agree with you more on that. I I have long been a proponent of telling stories, which is why I do this podcast. I think it is important to acknowledge the trials and tribulations that we have gone through Because people can relate even if it is not the same, right? People can still gain some nugget and a sense of connection. So I, I. Love that you're doing this, So talk to us a little bit about your memoir, The Suicide Club What to do when someone you love chooses death.

5:47 - Alexandra Wyman sure I, you know, after Shaw died, I know I didn't know the 1st thing about settling in a state of what resources were available. And even now I'm still finding that there are way more resources out there than I even know of still. And yet there is no one place to find it. Where could I go to be able to find access to different supports? And while there are some really great books out there that help walk through the grief process or how do we handle things emotionally, I just felt that for, for my personal experience, I felt like I was having to handle all of it all at once.

6:22 - Alexandra Wyman It was very chaotic and so it's not like I could really compartmentalize or find some linear way of, oh, today I'm just going to work on my grief, tomorrow I will call a bank, You know, it all had to be done all at once. It felt like, so I just started jotting down notes because I also was a, I am a person, I should say that, You know, if there is something that I go through and I can forge a path for someone else to make it a little easier for them, I'm willing to do that. And that's kind of how I felt with this.

6:49 - Alexandra Wyman And maybe if I write down these are the tips that helped me get through these, certain whether it was some of the bureaucracy or just the emotional journey, then maybe that will help someone else through their journey as well.

6:59 - Carrie Rickert Okay, so the book is really a combination of the tools and resources to do the logistical things when facing a loved one's death and also Tools and Resources for the Emotional impact of a loved one's Death Is right?

7:21 - Alexandra Wyman absolutely. And I think part of the process for me also through writing, helps me figure out just how I feel about John's death or a lot of the thoughts or stigma or judgments that come with death by suicide. And I was recognizing just how much. And I was part of the problem before. I mean, I had the same ideas about. Suicide that a lot of people do. It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem. People must be selfish. We're, you know, very, they're, you know, weak if you're gonna die this way.

7:58 - Alexandra Wyman And I was like, Shawn is the farthest thing from any of that. So I had to wrap my head around.

8:01 - Carrie Rickert Hi.

8:04 - Alexandra Wyman Well, wait a 2nd. There are all these social and cultural ideas about individuals who die by suicide. Shawn doesn't fit into any of that. So what really is the truth? And that's where writing really helped me identify that truth. And then I thought, well why not share this and see if we can maybe change the minds of other people so we stop focusing on the blame and anger and judgment, see that S Sen is more than just his death and also how can we switch, how we view people who die by suicide and bring more compassion to the situation.

8:36 - Carrie Rickert great because You know, when you think of someone dying by suicide, you think of, mental health challenges, mental illness and mental illness and the results of mental illness are highly stigmatized. Like, like you just said, I mean death by suicide is Something that as a culture, we judge. I'm a, as I said before, I'm a firm believer in talking that, that talking about the stuff. Easier Makes it easier to manage in the long term. Relative to mental health because, you know, we've talked a little bit about the stigma of death by suicide, but what about the stigma of mental health?

9:27 - Carrie Rickert You mentioned Sean has had some challenges. In that he internalized everything, you know. Obviously you, you can't ask, but you know, is it possible that he didn't have access or feel like he could ask for help?

9:49 - Alexandra Wyman yes I will say uh one of the things that I think is a struggle uh for a lot of people is when you've internalized certain things that others have said about you or that you felt around and and I like to say sometimes it doesn't really matter the details of a situation it's more about how how we feel about a situation so whether or not someone tells you something like you know just for example if someone tells you you're dumb whether or not you're really dumb you're you're gonna internalize it's less about what they're saying it's more about how does that make you feel and then that's what our body kind of holds on to and I'll say for shan I think that he did internalize a lot he did experience some childhood trauma and then on top of that wasn't really taught how to handle or work through any of that and then you add life and again this is my speculation then you add on life stress and then without having real healthy coping mechanisms and you add a pandemic where it limits even your strategies or your tools even more so in my opinion,

10:48 - Carrie Rickert Hey hm.

10:49 - Alexandra Wyman the stress just keeps compounding and I will say that it. And I'm a patterns person. I'm constantly looking for patterns and that's, I'm, I like doing puzzles like that's, that's how my brain works. And I get how infuriating it can be with a death, like a type of death like suicide. Because there, there is no predictability, there is nothing that's similar. Even I, I attended my support group, my suicide specific support group, yesterday and it's like for, for me, I'm like, well, Sean didn't really exhibit classic mental illness issues.

11:25 - Alexandra Wyman He was not clinically depressed, he was not on medication. He had some depressive symptoms that were associated with environmental situations, which a lot of people experience. And then you have someone in my group where her husband, who died by suicide, did have classic clinical mental illness issues, right? So it's so hard. And and I also say, like, where's the emotional piece we talk about? About mental illness and our thoughts. But to me it's like that emotional, pain, that ultimately is what gets to be so great for people.

11:59 - Alexandra Wyman And then of course, I, I mean, I like to look at physical and nutritional health, spiritual, because I think all of these different areas of our lives contribute to how we handle whatever comes, comes our way. But absolutely, I mean, Shaan even said, you know, all these things out there, therapy, you know, exercising more. I even talked about going to yoga. You know, looking for something that was passive that could help with stress management and, and at one point it was like, well, what's the point of trying any of these?

12:27 - Alexandra Wyman They're not gonna work for me. So it's, how do we help people in general feel that these strategies will work for them?

12:35 - Carrie Rickert okay okay so I can only imagine how challenging it's been for you and your son since august twenty twenty old was your son at the time of his father's death and how did you tell them sorry go ahead.

12:49 - Alexandra Wyman He was just over oh, sorry, oh, no, no, uh I didn't to cut you off uh he was just over one.

12:56 - Carrie Rickert Oh wow, okay,

12:59 - Alexandra Wyman The beginning, I, I just started with.

13:00 - Carrie Rickert that's a whole nother bowl of stress, isn't it?

13:04 - Alexandra Wyman Yes, cause I mean, I, I mean the guilt and shame I hold on to, which I mean there's plenty there. But I really couldn't function as a mom for the 1st two to two and a half weeks. I couldn't be far from my son. I had a lot of separation anxiety and I needed to be close to him, but I needed other people and luckily I had support of other people who came in and kind of helped with that routine, helped with meals, helped with getting him bathe to help getting me ready or getting him ready so that I could put him down for bed, you know, these types of things, because I couldn't function in that manner.

13:39 - Alexandra Wyman And I very early just started saying, you know, daddy died, daddy died and just left it at that, you know,

13:44 - Carrie Rickert Are you?

13:45 - Alexandra Wyman and with my own spiritual journey, I would say Daddy died. He's in heaven, and He lives in your heart, and that's you know. My son at the time didn't understand what any of that meant, but it gave him words. And then he's a little over four now and uh, when he was three, he asked me, well, how, how did daddy die? And I thought I was being very straightforward in explaining to him. And it turns out I was way too ambiguous. And the thing with children is when you're too ambiguous, they fill in the gaps on their own.

14:20 - Alexandra Wyman And so I had tried to. You know, give him an answer to how Daddy died when I really just needed to be concrete and luckily through with some play therapy, I was also given some resources. And really what I needed to say was Daddy's body stopped and he's not breathing and instead I'm like, well, Daddy was in a lot of pain and he did not ask for help. And trying to do all this, but also not create an idea in my son's head of,

14:43 - Carrie Rickert Hey.

14:47 - Alexandra Wyman oh, well, if I'm in pain. And I'm gonna die.

14:51 - Carrie Rickert Tricky.

14:52 - Alexandra Wyman Yes, and all I really need to say is Daddy's body stopped.

14:59 - Carrie Rickert I can understand why you you would have tried to create a story that was palatable to a young child. You know, not lie to your child, right? Like you feel like you have to give them an explanation that is age appropriate and yet isn't dishonest or even skimming the truth. So like My daughter always to me she's like, Mom, it was a yes or no question and I'm like, I do not have yes or no answers.

15:43 - Alexandra Wyman I love that. I'm gonna start using that.

15:47 - Carrie Rickert I just don't. I I have words. I have lots of words. I can imagine how challenging that was, like trying to figure out what the right words to say were. And I'm so glad that you have had the continued support of and therapy for both you and him. Sometimes we need the experts in the field to give us the right words to say.

16:18 - Alexandra Wyman exactly. And I, I mean I also is finding that becau I can't necessarily say because I think because I was too ambiguous, my son started to get other fears around me leaving that he was gonna die. And so once I started seeing that, that's when I said, okay, let's go, let's go do some play therapy. And that was huge. And it was grief specific, to get to give more tools for him and me. And I've seen a huge difference in him in I've heard him say. Oh, my daddy died and uh, I'm so proud of him for being able to actually say that.

16:56 - Alexandra Wyman And then he moves on, he doesn't sit on it,

16:58 - Carrie Rickert Great.

16:58 - Alexandra Wyman he doesn't start crying, he just a, you know, very matter of faculty. And so I can see that the play therapy helps because it took that edge of fear away from him.

17:07 - Carrie Rickert Got it, got it. That makes sense. I would imagine that many people feel like the death of a loved one by suicide is is their fault. I know when my son was having suicidal ideation, I felt like it was my fault that I didn't give him enough help or the right kind of help. I actually wrote an entire essay on What if I am not enough? Did you feel that way, and if so, how did you manage to get through to the other side of those feelings?

17:46 - Alexandra Wyman There's so much guilt, or what is? Or understanding participation I was actually having a conversation with someone either yesterday or the day before and just realizing that when I talk about what our marriage was like or some of the insecurities I had, I also wanna, you know, reiterate, oh, you know, that contributed, but it's still not my fault almost to give that qualifier, cause there is still so much guilt of, well, maybe I could have been a stronger person or a stronger partner and the, the truth is, another couple, someone could have insecurities and it won't end in suicide like that kind of,

18:23 - Carrie Rickert Right.

18:25 - Alexandra Wyman that can happen at any point in time. So really I, you know, I think when we take on the responsibility of someone else's life, you know, culturally and, and I will say in a lot of what happens with suicide prevention is we are there to save a life and let's put on our capes and we're gonna do everything that we can. But then there is also this just undertone and feeling that if someone dies, that somehow we failed because we couldn't save them.

18:57 - Carrie Rickert Hey.

18:58 - Alexandra Wyman and to me that takes away their choice. It's not a great choice. I'm, you know, I am not excited that Sean made this decision. Can at points in time I understand his decision absolutely because I was not in the amount of emotional pain that he was in. But I think when we can work through. And that's essentially what I had to do is just start getting real about what is mine to own. Yes, I can work through the ways that I may have contributed to stress that compounded on him. Ways that I could do better next time or learn how to have better communication or how to not be so insecure and see if that will help.

19:37 - Alexandra Wyman But also I can't take on his decision. Like he also has responsibility in this. He could have tried to find a way to go get more help, you know. So I I think it's not an easy way. It's not easy to, to try and work through not feeling some sort of responsibility. But in the end, because we don't want to think like our person actually made this choice, like it's almost like out of all the things we could choose, don't choose that one. And then it must be someone else or something else that pushed them over to the edge for them to choose it, rather than actually they chose themselves.

20:20 - Carrie Rickert And it's probably a, a double edged sword of it, right, You know, because it's like, well, it's either my fault or chose to abandon us. That is not to say that is actually what his thinking is, and I don't believe that is for people who die by suicide. I, I think. Has less to do with other people than than what we like to believe. But I think culturally what we like to believe is it's either, it's, oh, it's my fault. I'm responsible for this. I'm the reason that he I couldn't keep him alive right, or he chose to leave, and my son and you know all of those things is that.

21:09 - Alexandra Wyman I actually haven't. I haven't had that feeling of not being enough. And I'm even trying to think of what I wrote. Maybe I did write about that. I don't remember, I'll be honest. But I don't recall ever really feeling I've, I've asked the question like, why wasn't I enough for him to stay? But the more again that I could make his death about him and not about me. Then it's less about me not being enough.

21:33 - Carrie Rickert En.

21:35 - Alexandra Wyman cause again, as you're saying, that creates that continued cycle of it's up to me. If I was just enough, he would have stayed alive. If I had done this, the truth is I could have changed so many different ways that I reacted and responded on the day that he died and that same outcome could have happened There is no saying that that wouldn't have been the end result.

21:54 - Carrie Rickert Hey.

21:58 - Alexandra Wyman and so I didn't. I, I mean, yes, there are feelings of abandonment, but it's not to that extent for me because I think I look at it more of he was in a lot of pain. I knew that he was dealing with things not to the extent at which he was. And this was his way to end that pain. And I do have my, I will say like this was not part of our deal, this is how, how I thought my life was gonna go, but I haven't. I would say like those feelings of not being enough or or being abandoned have not continued on.

22:36 - Carrie Rickert Okay, so you've been able to find compassion. Light if you will. You know it. You have been able to understand the choice as separate from you.

22:57 - Alexandra Wyman Yes, because uh, I've talked with several therapists, even with my own support group, and one of the things that comes up pretty consistently and even from information of, from individuals who have attempted and survived and the cont, like did not make his 2nd attempt, is the idea of not being a burden. I'm feeling this emotional pain, I don't know what to do with it, there's nothing that's gonna work for me to be able to work through this. I'm a broken person, I'm a burden to everyone that I'm around.

23:28 - Alexandra Wyman And then in that clouded judgment, this is the way I can end the pain and not be a continued burden to the people I love, which is a very different idea than someone is weak. They bailed, they laugh, they couldn't handle it. And and you know, I will say in a very morbid way, if you were to actually break down the steps. And what is needed to actually take the life and last breath out of yourself and to intentionally do that. That's not an easy thing to do. Anti.

24:01 - Carrie Rickert I can't imagine that it is it There is some kind of courageousness in that, and As a culture, we have deemed that weakness and taking the easy way out, you know, there is so much judgment. Around, you know, just our cultural standards, You know, we, we work hard, we fight until the end, and we keep going and keep going and keep going. It doesn't matter what kind of pain we're in, this is just the cultural ideal that we as Americans have grown up with. And I think it does a disservice to a lot of people who are in pain because it means they can't talk about it, they can't There aren't readily available and easily accessible resources.

25:00 - Carrie Rickert You know, I, I have found with in my own journeys, there are resources available for just about everything. Easily accessible resources are a totally different ball of wax, right? Like they're there, but nobody talks about them, nobody tells you they're there. It's really hard to use those resources if you don't know they're there.

25:29 - Alexandra Wyman and there there can be Fal, I mean, if you think from a bureaucratic standpoint, you know, there can be fallout, people can have their jobs threatened if they're open about resources, needing resources,

25:41 - Carrie Rickert Need.

25:41 - Alexandra Wyman you know, they're uh, culturally there, as you're saying, there can be a lot of stigma and judgment on that, You know, we You have a lot of compassion for people who are in physical pain because we can see it and we can see what it does to them.

25:53 - Carrie Rickert Yes.

25:56 - Alexandra Wyman But if someone has emotional pain, it's almost like, prove it, prove to me that you got this, or why don't you just get yourself a medication for this? Why, you know, why don't you? And and I will say I think what ends happening, especially with suicide, is people's fear. We project onto each other what we, what are, what we are uncomfortable with and so if people are gonna come to judgment on someone who dies by suicide, in my opinion it's because they are afraid that they're gonna have to go through something traumatic and, and tragic.

26:28 - Alexandra Wyman And so it's very easy to say, well, I wouldn't make that decision or I wouldn't do that. Or how selfish to leave and abandon your family like that. And and there's no compassion or empathy in there to realize that someone was in that much pain that, you know, again we have compassion for other types, but not necessarily this type. And to create space so that we feel better about what we have going on in our own lives.

26:56 - Carrie Rickert I feel like that is so. Statement is so important. Creating space Um, I believe there is space for all of this and yet we don't often create this space to talk about things like this to, you know, Whether or not we can prevent someone, and again, it is not really our job to, but whether or not we can prevent someone from dying by suicide, you know, doesn't mean We don't need some kind of support system, right? And when someone, and when we do lose, if we do lose a loved one to suicide, you know, how can we help?

27:57 - Carrie Rickert Someone, right? Like, so. You lost your husband, How could, what was the best way that someone could help you?

28:10 - Alexandra Wyman Oh, that's a great question. Gosh, you know, I think initially, well, let me say this. Again. Culturally we are fixers, right? We see someone else is in pain. It makes us uncomfortable, Death makes us uncomfortable. Don't know what to say. Then you bring on. Like I've had quite a few conversations from the religious and spiritual perspective on what people think happens, right? That's the ultimate sin. Do not take your own life, you've taken out of God's hands. There's all these different perspectives.

28:44 - Alexandra Wyman And then people just want to fix it. Like could we just fix it, make it all feel better and move on? And it doesn't Work that way. In the end what I think was most helpful was just people letting me know they were there for me. Because often what happens is we show up for those 1st two weeks bereavement. And I'll say this in the Us is just not helpful, our bereavement, even our approach. But you know, people were around and did so much to help my son and me initially and then as they go back to their lives and you know, as they, as you say, like the dust settles.

29:19 - Alexandra Wyman I, you know, at that point I'm having to figure out, wait, wait, where are we gonna live, do I still have my job, do you still have daycare, what, how am I gonna handle this, plus just this immense amount of grief and I still have not been able to find the words to describe what that feels like, other than it just feels completely unbearable and In all that, I think when people would just reach out and say, just thinking about you b more to me. And it was more encouraging to me than people actually trying to fix my situation.

29:55 - Alexandra Wyman And I'll say that I did have people who helped immensely because there were logistics like there, were threats of legal action against me, so I, you know, was able to ask for help to find my own legal representation. There were whispers about custody over my son, so it was helpful to be able to talk to people who had knowledge and experience in these areas to kind of walk me through it. So there's logistical things like that, but just knowing in sensing that people were there and available was was very helpful.

30:27 - Carrie Rickert Because people don't stay and think about you unless they are, because it is easier just to. You know, you can show up for two weeks and you know, bring a casserole, but You know, continuously saying, Hey, I'm thinking about you, you know, let me know if you need anything or wanna get together or something like that. I would imagine makes, made you feel like you were still person.

31:00 - Alexandra Wyman Yes.

31:00 - Carrie Rickert Cause, cause you probably like having not experienced this kind of grief. I, I can't imagine having to Both be a parent and You know of a baby and be someone who's lost their loved one. I would imagine that you felt very hollow.

31:33 - Alexandra Wyman Yes, and I'll say so. For me, my shock lasted about four months and,

31:38 - Carrie Rickert Okay.

31:39 - Alexandra Wyman and I usually describe that period of time being like just a shell of a person. I was just existing. I had someone I went to, a massage therapist, I think six weeks after. Someone got me a massage and she looked at me and she was like, I don't see any light in you. And I was like, I know. And I saw her months later, and she said, I remember you and it, and it's starting to come back. I can start to seee your light. And so That's exactly it. There's no 1st of all like my body physiologically and my brain.

32:15 - Alexandra Wyman Prevented me from feeling all the fields. Because at that, and that's what our brain does, you know, it's protecting, protecting us from what? That immense amount of grief. I was even just lamenting the other day. I'm like, I still feel like my heart is broken and it's over three years, you know, and it, and then when the shock lifted and I felt this rush of emotion, I'm, oh my goodness. And it does feel unbearable and it does feel impossible. And yet when I have people asking, I'm like, I honestly, I can't tell you, you just do, you just do.

32:49 - Carrie Rickert Hey.

32:50 - Alexandra Wyman And you find a way to just put 1 ft in front of very, very little steps and sometimes those steps feel like I've gone backwards and I just slid down that big mountain and it's very frustrating. And then I just keep putting 1 ft in front of the other again.

33:18 - Carrie Rickert If there is one thing you would want our listeners to take away from today's conversation, what would that be?

33:28 - Alexandra Wyman I would say that it's, it is possible to experience a feeling of joy again. It's not easy to access if you're in the throws of the grief journey. I call a grief kind of sludge gotta work through the, the emotions associated with grief. Sludge kind of have to work through those, don't, don't ignore them. Because then they just get bigger and bigger. And there can be other negative impacts on the body and on your mind when you do that. It is possible to work through them. And then start to see that moment, you know, I, I think there are still moments of joy.

34:06 - Alexandra Wyman I think even from Dd zero, there are probably moments of joy that were still happening around me, but I couldn't see them because of how intense my grief was. Starting to work through. It was about nine or ten months after Shaan died that I had my 1st moment of looking forward to something. That's all it was. I was just looking forward to something and I, oh, I'm actually looking forward to doing something. This is seems so trivial but was such a big deal. And then once you kind of have Yes, and once you have access to something like that, that gives you a little bit of joy.

34:43 - Alexandra Wyman It almost opens up the opportunity for more moments of joy to come through.

34:50 - Carrie Rickert Okay, I'd like that. So what is bringing you joy today?

34:59 - Alexandra Wyman You know. Relationship with my son has shifted and changed. He's always been a talker and we have some very interesting conversations. I'll share this just because this like really made me laugh yesterday. But we are eating dinner and he goes Mom, I just don't feel well and I said, oh, or does it hurt? He goes all over and I said, oh, you know, can you tell me exactly what you're feeling? And he looks at me and he's got s Sean's eyes, so big brown eyes and he looks at me, goes Mom, I think if you let me watch a show, I feel so much better.

35:33 - Alexandra Wyman And I just had to chuckle and I was like,

35:34 - Carrie Rickert Nickname.

35:35 - Alexandra Wyman good negotiating, no, but good negotiating. And so it's moments like that, like it's, it is hard to be a single parent and, and widowed and I'm still working through a lot of grief and I will be for the rest of my life. But Its little moments like that and and being able to see his personality really come out more that that does bring me a lot of joy.

35:58 - Carrie Rickert That's wonderful. That's wonderful. Do you think joy and hope are linked?

36:09 - Alexandra Wyman I think so, cause I think they're intertwined. I think sometimes As I reflect on the 1st time, I actually had that moment where I was looking forward to something. It was like having that moment gave me hope that I could have more of them. And then on the flip side of that having if, you know, I think initially after Sean died, I did have this small, little bit of hope that I wouldn't have to feel so awful all the time. And I think that holding on to that little piece of hope leads to ha being open to those moments of joy.

36:49 - Carrie Rickert Do you feel like, connection has made a difference for you, like, Have you had instances of friends and family spending time with you or connecting with you? That has, that has given you the opportunity to see that joy and the hope.

37:12 - Alexandra Wyman Absolutely, I'm a big proponent of finding good, solid connection and being able to work through whatever is in our lives that's toxic and getting rid of it. You know, grief can be very isolating, death can feel very isolating, loss can feel very isolating in and it's hard to find, you know, I appreciate my support group or women I've met who widows by suicide because there is just an understanding and I don't have to explain anything, I don't have to convince anyone of anything. I can just, I just know that we have this level of standing and there is that connection.

37:53 - Alexandra Wyman And then I know that I'll seek out also other people. And I, I call it my people who just get it. They may not have had a loss like I have, but they just get it. They come to the table with empathy. They understand that we're all just navigating life And I've had to really work on evaluating individuals who are in my life and who do I want my life and who maybe have been helpful in the past. But maybe our friendship has just shifted and changed and we just don't have that same connection as we used to.

38:28 - Carrie Rickert You know, that is one thing that I've, I've noticed, is that, you know, our connections do change over time and you know, particularly when we have had traumatic events in our life. As you said, it can be incredibly isolating. You feel like you're the only one who's experienced this, or you feel like you're on display for everyone else and um, and that is overwhelming. And so having those few connections of people who just get it, I can imagine were, you know, lifelines for you.

39:07 - Alexandra Wyman Yes, and I, I think you touch on something that's really important because. You know, people you might expect to be there with, you may not be and they can't be and that's, you know, in the end that's okay because what you're seeing is the level of their capacity and what their limitations are. And then there may be other people that you least expect to will be there for you and are you know, it's, it's almost like you just have to keep trying but know your own limits on what is okay or is not okay as far as those connections and friendships or relationships and, and it's important.

39:43 - Alexandra Wyman I was not. I think that was a big part of my grief was, was I did not understand this dynamic and so I was very hurt and sad when people I thought would be there for me weren't.

39:58 - Carrie Rickert I can imagine because that's like double grief, right? You know, it's very unfair, but you think like, oh, these are people I've known for my entire life, they're gonna be there for me and then like, wow, okay. Maybe not, but you, but I agree with you that is a capacity issue that is not yours, right?

40:20 - Alexandra Wyman Yes.

40:21 - Carrie Rickert that, that is. Their lack of capacity to manage something or to have that kind of empathy. It doesn't make them necessarily a bad person, it just makes them. Lacking capacity to be a suitable support system.

40:41 - Alexandra Wyman Exactly. And that took me a long time. I mean I you know, as I mentioned at the beginning of this, I internalized everything that was coming at me after Shandy. I mean everything and it took me a long time to start working through. Will wait a 2nd, you know, cause, cause my fallback was, well, why would someone say something so mean or horrible if it wasn't true, the true that people do that.

41:07 - Carrie Rickert Hey.

41:07 - Alexandra Wyman So I had to really work through, you know, how much did I wanna put time and effort into what other people were saying versus just getting grounded in what I knew to be true? Then really start setting those boundaries and then started the process of, okay, how can I go and find people who are gonna be a support system for me outside of what I thought was available?

41:35 - Carrie Rickert That's so interesting because it, because I, I agree. I think that we get so wrapped up in our in the pictures in our head, right, you know. And you had already dealt with a serious breach of the picture in your head, right? Like you did not imagine your life turning out this way. And then when we have friends or family members that don't have the capacity to be the support that we need. Shipping away at that picture in our head of what life is supposed to be, and It does take a long time to figure out what.

42:28 - Carrie Rickert You know, to figure out how to navigate that and how to be okay with. Your own story.

42:40 - Alexandra Wyman exactly. And I think what you touch on is, is awesome. Because that was a big, a big part of this was that before Shun died, had exactly that picture in my mind. It was my checklist. I got this nice little gift. This is what I say. I got this nice little gift box when I was born that said This is what a successful life looks like, and It did not happen for me right in college. Like usually what I say is, you know, you go to college, you find your partner, you know, you get married, get your house, your kids and, and that didn't happen.

43:14 - Alexandra Wyman I was in my mid thirties when I met S. Sean and so I was so excited. I was like, yes, successful life, here I come and you know.

43:22 - Carrie Rickert Hey.

43:24 - Alexandra Wyman not even two years after we got married is when he died and I went wait a 2nd, wait a 2nd. I'm having to rebuild this, I'm having to make up my own rules, I'm having to this out. This was not again, not part of the deal. And through that did I recognize. Oh, you know, we look for life to be predictable because predictability equals safety and that's what makes us feel solid, safety and secure. But what I have found is that no life is predictable, and when we can turn inward and heal ourselves and heal our past hurts, then we are what become predictable.

44:01 - Alexandra Wyman How we respond to situations, how we trust ourselves to handle the unpredictability of life, is what really creates that safety and security.

44:10 - Carrie Rickert and I think really is what creates a Successful life, right? You know,

44:16 - Alexandra Wyman I hope so.

44:18 - Carrie Rickert You know, I, I relate so much to, to what you said about your gift buck of like this is what life is supposed to look like and you know, I, I have made a lot of choices in my life based on what was in that, your proverbial gift box, right?

44:34 - Alexandra Wyman Exactly.

44:37 - Carrie Rickert A lot of those choices did not turn out the way that I expected them to, at this point and and as you have experienced, it takes a lot of work and time and effort to overcome the cultural ideals and figure out your own definition of success and for me. I I, I realize that success isn't about arriving to some place, right? Like there is no arriving. You're never getting anywhere. You are just growing and you're continuing to grow and you're continuing to respond to new things in new ways.

45:27 - Carrie Rickert And you're continuing to become healthier. So it's never, I'm going to get to the place where I'm successful. It is, I am successful in the place that I am.

45:41 - Alexandra Wyman I love that and that's exactly how I feel now. And you know, my therapist reminds me and I mentioned this briefly is, you know, I get to make up my own rules now. Like I don't have to abide by the conditioning of those ideals. And now I get to exactly do what you're saying is. I am successful because I'm continuing to put 1 ft in front of the other. I am growing, I am raising my son, I am working through this grief. And it's not always just about what we're doing. And I think that's something that I still have to work on this process,

46:11 - Carrie Rickert Hey.

46:16 - Alexandra Wyman but it's a, it's about, as you said, like who we are becoming, who, how do we take all of these experiences and have these Things help us be a better person and grow,

46:30 - Carrie Rickert great. How do?

46:31 - Alexandra Wyman Yeah.

46:31 - Carrie Rickert How do we integrate the wonderful things, the difficult things and Make it into something that doesn't have to be the picture in our heads, you know.

46:44 - Alexandra Wyman Exactly. And to see, it took me a while to see. It's a whole learning experience like that's. You know, someone in a community that I follow will say everybody in our lives, relationships, spouses, sibling, they're all teachers, everybody in our life is a teacher. And it's taken you quite a while to really understand and live that and go, oh, now I get it.

47:12 - Carrie Rickert and yes, I think all the in our lives are teachers, you know, good or bad, right? They're teaching us lesson, but I think all the experiences that we have are also teachers. And you know, this is, that's our, those are our inflection points, our ways of growing is by incorporating these new experiences and the lessons that we learn from new people. You know. A You are remarkable and I hope you know that.

47:46 - Alexandra Wyman Oh, well, thank you.

47:50 - Carrie Rickert I mean, I, I know how difficult it can be to, through other kinds of trauma, You are doing an amazing job, and I hope that you believe that about yourself.

48:09 - Alexandra Wyman You're gonna make me tear up a little bit, thank you. And, and, you know, it's hard sometimes to take that break, you know, and, and to see how, and I have to remind myself, see how far I've come from day zero, from day one, cause I, as I have said, I still have a lot of shame and guilt around that. But To see, you know, to take that moment and just look and go, okay, And I, and I've done it right, like I've done it. I didn't think I could do it and I'm doing it, I'm figuring it out.

48:40 - Carrie Rickert That's amazing. It's amazing. You You have taught me so much today and I really appreciate your time and energy. How can people reach you? Where can they buy your book and or book you for speaking engagements?

48:59 - Alexandra Wyman Sure, so um, the book is called The Suicide Club What to Do When Someone You Love Chooses Death. And it's mainly available on Amazon, but there are some other websites you can find, for purchase. And then I do have a website and it's Forward to Joy, Dott. Com, all spelled out,

49:16 - Carrie Rickert Okay.

49:18 - Alexandra Wyman and then I can also be reached on Instagram at Forward to Joy.

49:22 - Carrie Rickert Excellent. So what I will do is make sure that that information is included in our show notes. So if anyone wants to reach Alexandra, you can find it there.

49:33 - Alexandra Wyman Thank you so much for your time, Carrie.