Transformational Trauma and Healing: Can Trauma Coaching Help Me with Hailee Mae

I absolutely loved this conversation with Hailee Mae, certified life and trauma coach. We talked about our own experiences with trauma, different healing modalities that are out there, and frameworks for thinking about trauma and the journey to heal it. 

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Transcript

Transformational Trauma and Healing Recording: Hailee/Carrie 
Fri. May 12, 2023

5:45 - Carrie Rickert Welcome, Hailee. I am so glad to have you here with us today.

5:55 - Hailee Mae Oh, thanks, Carrie. I'm like so excited to be here with you.

6:00 - Carrie Rickert That's awesome. I am. I am so fortunate in that. How we met. Evolved Networking group has brought me into the lives of so many fantastic people and um, you know, I am always grateful for that and, and you are one of those people. So lucky me.

6:24 - Hailee Mae I know I'm lucky, me right. I was thinking about that this morning. I'm like, man, how did I look out to just get to know Carrie be part of her journey? This is just it's been a t a treat, for sure.

6:40 - Carrie Rickert Feeling is mutual, absolutely. Are a certified life and trauma coach. Can you explain what it means to be a trauma coach? Cause I think a lot of people wouldn't know that that's even a resource.

6:58 - Hailee Mae Absolutely. For me, I like to call myself a trauma mitigation coach and I like the word mitigation because it, it basically implies the word to mitigate, right means to make something. Less severe or less serious, less painful. And for me, I love that definition, because It basically means I get to be a healing companion with those who are on their healing journey. Because I'm intimately aware of how trauma can negatively impact your life, your relationship, your finances. All of the things, I am very intimately aware of that because of my own childhood and developmental trauma.

7:52 - Hailee Mae It is something that really lights me up to be able to walk alongside of those who also are negatively impacted by their trauma.

8:03 - Carrie Rickert Okay, so you're kind of bringing me to my next question, which is what drew you to the profession, your own experience or? Talk to us about that.

8:15 - Hailee Mae Yes, absolutely, I think for many of us, right, we kind of are drawn. Especially in the mental health, mental wellness world, we're kind of drawn to help those who may be, are experiencing what we experienced in the past. So yes, we are all kind of the walking wounded and I was that person I am thirty seven years old and for the past three decades I have carried the burden of trauma with me through all of the relationships and experiences in my life, and I truly felt broken. I was damaged and I was broken, and there was no hope or help for me until there was.

9:12 - Hailee Mae Until I found The hope in healing. Once I was able to wake up and start to heal and live. I just knew that this is what I wanted to do and be a part of, to help other people heal as well.

9:35 - Carrie Rickert totally makes sense. And, and I feel that as well, I guess my question is, you know, Trauma coach How is that different from being a therapist? How is the journey with the therapist different? From the journey of Uh with a trauma coach.

10:08 - Hailee Mae That's a really good question. I was in a seminar a few days ago with some therapists who were presenting on trauma actually, and I have taken several trauma certifications and some courses. We were all speaking the same language. For me there is a fair, a very fine line as to the tools that I have for my clients and what I can. Help them with, and when it's time to call in conjunctive support, refer them to Maybe a trauma therapist, a grief therapist, somebody who has maybe more tools in their tool kit to help that individual person.

11:04 - Hailee Mae It's very individual. Each. Each therapist is different and you need to Find a therapist that is a good fit for you. For me it's the same thing. So we're both speaking the same language, we're both hel helping a client on their healing journey. But there may be times when bringing in a coach is what is the next best step, or there may be times when bringing in a therapist or other healing experts and modalities.

11:32 - Carrie Rickert Oy.

11:37 - Hailee Mae So it's very individualized.

11:37 - Carrie Rickert Got it?

11:39 - Hailee Mae I don't know if that's your experience as well.

11:41 - Carrie Rickert absolutely. You know, it, it has, I have gone the therapy route, I have gone the coach rout, I have gone acupuncture and a holistic healing kind of thing and you know, it is all very individual. I, I have meshed with I have not meshed with other people, and you know There is a, there is a lot to be said for that individualization and also for the fact that, you know that, okay, we've utilized all the tools in my toolbox. You still need some help. Let's look for some additional resources.

12:28 - Hailee Mae I love that so much.

12:28 - Carrie Rickert I like that. I, I, I like that a lot because I think so often. Who are helping really have the desire to help. They can do all the help, right? And don't search outside of their expertise for something that could be really beneficial as a resource for their client. So I, I absolutely love that you are willing to do that.

13:05 - Hailee Mae I have to say I am a huge, a huge proponent of therapy. I've been in therapy for. 20 years now, therapy was, was amazing for certain aspects, to help reconcile some really challenging things that happened to me in my past. But there did become a point where I felt like I was just rinsing and repeating and I couldn't move forward as I was just rehashing the past. And it was once I found. Life coaching and married the two together. That everything for me changed and my healing started to take off.

13:51 - Hailee Mae So I think there's a beautiful place for both. And I just, I love the coaching aspect because for me and for my clients it's he, it's kind of bridging that gap between. Where they were in their past, where they are right now. But now, where do we want to be? Where,

14:12 - Carrie Rickert Hey.

14:12 - Hailee Mae where are we going, and how can we get there while we're healing? And what does that look like,

14:21 - Carrie Rickert methods or approaches do you use to help people heal from trauma and or move to that. They're going to be.

14:36 - Hailee Mae So there's so many, as you know, there are so many methods and healing modalities out there. Personally love to utilize somatic experiencing. For myself and for my clients. So a big one that I utilize is tapping.

14:52 - Carrie Rickert You're right.

14:58 - Hailee Mae For those listening who maybe aren't familiar with tapping, a great resource that I really enjoy and that I, I suggest to my clients is downloading the app, the tapping solutions,

15:11 - Carrie Rickert Okay, I think I downloaded that the other day.

15:12 - Hailee Mae It's a free. Did you really I am like telling all the people about the tapping solutions and I have no affiliation with them at all,

15:16 - Carrie Rickert I think it did.

15:25 - Hailee Mae but Tapping has been a huge, huge help for me as somebody who has some chronic anxiety and stress. Tapping has been amazing. So downloading the app, it's free, there is a paid version where you get access to more obviously, but that's been one that I've really loved utilizing with clients. Also, Ifs, internal family systems is a really great tool in helping those heal their inner child.

16:00 - Carrie Rickert okay.

16:02 - Hailee Mae Richard Schwartz is, is the individual Who created internal family systems. So doing a lot of that and feeling our feelings, which sounds really terrible to a lot of people.

16:16 - Carrie Rickert It's, it sounds terrible. Yeah,

16:18 - Hailee Mae It's, and sometimes it is really terrible.

16:19 - Carrie Rickert not a fan, not, not a fan.

16:23 - Hailee Mae None of us are, which is why we are yes.

16:25 - Carrie Rickert At least the hard ones, I mean. Joy. Give me all the joy.

16:31 - Hailee Mae well, and that is exactly, it is, we are just like, give me all the joy. And we're pushing down and resisting these negative feelings that are coming up and because we're resisting them, that we're actually creating more negative patterns in our life, which is why a lot of us are overeating and over drinking and over social media,

16:50 - Carrie Rickert Yes,

16:53 - Hailee Mae eating and shopping, right?

16:55 - Carrie Rickert and overworking.

16:56 - Hailee Mae Because we just don't, we're over working whatever, right? So creating a safe space and pain for clients to feel their feelings. A game changer. And again, the most important part there is creating a safe container, because for those of us who have experienced trauma, going inside and feeling the things in our body sometimes feel like death. It's actually like our brain gets so activated that I might be dying because I'm feeling this emotion. So It's one of those tricky ones, but important.

17:43 - Carrie Rickert talk to us a little bit about, the somatic stuff, because I think A lott of people aren't familiar with that. I mean, unless you regularly look at other modalities, that's not a Western medicine thing.

18:02 - Hailee Mae Yeah, it's actually not something I was super familiar with up until a few years ago, but somatic healing basically means. Healing from within the body.

18:15 - Carrie Rickert Okay,

18:16 - Hailee Mae a lot of when people think about therapy, they kind of associated with talking therapy, which is what we call a top the top down method,

18:24 - Carrie Rickert and your brain.

18:26 - Hailee Mae where we're just talking, right? So mad is We're going from the bottom up, meaning we're going to the body to really figure out what is going on with the body, what needs to be healed. And so that's what I mean when I say somatic healing. And there are so many different types of somatic healing. Modalities. A very common one is Emdr, which is eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. That is actually a therapy that I have done pretty extensively with a therapist and that really focuses on your trauma memory.

19:08 - Hailee Mae While experiencing bilateral Sti stimulation, I always want to say stimulation. There is compassionate inquiry. I There are, there is brain spotting, there are so, so many and they are gaining a lot of traction. So for anybody who is feeling stuck and maybe is not progressing with just Normal talk therapy. You know, trying on some of these somatic healing modalities can be a really big help and it's not a one size fit all. It's, it's one of those things where you try it and it might not work for you.

19:56 - Hailee Mae And that doesn't mean that you're super duke for extra broken. It just means that modality. Doesn't fit for you, and you now get to try another one.

20:06 - Carrie Rickert Okay, so can you give us an example of a client that you've helped using as somatic modality? And obviously no names.

20:17 - Hailee Mae Yes, absolutely. Let me think of a client recently. I had a client who was experiencing a lot of Stress and anxiety They are a student and obviously have a lot on their plate. The anxiety was so activating. Access any sort of reasoning like a lot of us do who have a lott of overwhelming anxiety. So we did some really basic tapping Again, for those who might not be familiar with tapping, it's just these parts of the body that we are we tap to just really. Bring our nervous system down to be able to regulate it so we can access our higher brain On Zoom, we did some tapping, actually turned on a tapping session from the Tapping Solutions app,

21:31 - Carrie Rickert Resume.

21:32 - Hailee Mae and together we went through that. And she rated her anxiety and stress at an eight, between one and ten at the start of the session and after we went through the different tapping, she was all the way down to a three.

21:47 - Carrie Rickert Wow.

21:51 - Hailee Mae Impactful again I'm trying to be so careful saying it isn't always and I don't want people to get stuck in this. It's not working. For me, so I'm broken. It is a great tool, one tool out of all the tools to try.

22:09 - Carrie Rickert well, and I think that I mean your point is very well taken. I think it is so important to continue to share with people that No matter what they try, if it doesn't work, there is, there are different things out there, there are other modalities, there are, you will find something that works for you. You are not beyond repair, right? I think so many people try one thing or or You know, I was talking with a friend of mine who's um, a psychologist and he was saying the other day that people themselves up and it takes them.

23:05 - Carrie Rickert Long to be able to make the therapy appointment right or make the coaching appointment, and then if They don't mesh with the person or the thing that they tried with their coach didn't produce the results that were in their head, right? They just stop and and like this isn't gonna work for me, I'm done. And that's doing such a disservice, their healing. It's an important message, I think for everyone and, and I'm sure this is a message that you give your clients. We're gonna try a lot of things that aren't gonna work, we're gonna try some things that are gonna work tooo I'm asking you to be patient, you know, like let's keep trying, give me honest feedback and, and I think that's so hard for people, especially when they're already coming to you because they're so vulnerable and they feel so bad inside when something doesn't work.

24:20 - Carrie Rickert It's like, why did I even bother? Like I'm just gonna live this way, right?

24:26 - Hailee Mae Absolutely, yeah, because it's not like you're trying on shoes, right, or you're not trying out different hairdressers. This is real, this is pain. This is so like you said, so vulnerable and so. Attempt to talk about this with someone to access that part of you that is wounded. Extremely scary. Sometimes it takes so much courage and then know That there is a chance that I'm putting myself out there.

25:01 - Carrie Rickert It takes so much courage.

25:11 - Hailee Mae And that it could potentially be more damaging or triggering is extremely, extremely scary. And I absolutely understand this. I went through over a dozen therapists in a 15 year span. I was re traumatized with some of them and it, it wasn't a good fit and I made that mean all of the negative things about me. And my ability to heal or be whole again, that is detrimental to our health and our survival. And so it is important as a coach, as a trauma mitigation coach, understand that this is, this is something that could potentially heal or.

26:05 - Hailee Mae Image an individual. That very seriously and to know that while connection does mitigate trauma, Letting somebody be vulnerable. Can be, can seem very dangerous to them. So we just have to be very aware that again,

26:24 - Carrie Rickert Ground.

26:26 - Hailee Mae the container that we are creating is a safe space for everyone.

26:34 - Carrie Rickert How do you create that safe space container?

26:39 - Hailee Mae That's a good question. So in the different trainings that I've done and in the current training that I'm doing. A trauma coach as a trauma mitigation specialist. The number one thing is compassionate and deep listening.

26:52 - Carrie Rickert and

26:59 - Hailee Mae For me, the most important thing is that my clients feel, felt feel seen They feel heard, understood, and cared for. So that is my number one priority. We create trust and safety from the very beginning, because if that is not there, then healing is just not possible.

27:27 - Carrie Rickert And it could actually become more traumatic.

27:28 - Hailee Mae That was. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.

27:36 - Carrie Rickert Okay, so Deep, compassionate listening that makes a lot of sense to me. I guess You have a client and they are, you know, coming to you to help them manage their emotions and responses to triggers. How do you help? Them with that while continuing that safe container.

28:12 - Hailee Mae That's a really good question. Basically, as we know, trauma reduces our ability to access our capacity, right? It's not just an ideation, it is a real thing. And so when I have clients who are coming to me, some trauma. 1st of all, I have all the love and the grace, knowing that there is an inability for them in certain areas to access their their own capacity. Because really we are all the walking wounded, but we are all perfectly whole, okay, And that is something that was a very difficult lesson for me to learn that, I'm whole.

28:59 - Hailee Mae Even though there are parts of me that feel broken, I am whole as a human. And to see that in my client and eventually help them to see it is a game changer. So what I try not to have an agenda for my clients because they really are the ones themselves. They are experiencing their trauma within their body, but what I want to help them do is to connect. And kind of unburden What they've been carrying around, like helping them realize that their trauma is not who they are, that they can put it down when they want to.

29:45 - Carrie Rickert So that's an interesting concept. And and it, it's funny because I had someone say to me once, why do you always lead with your accident? Like when I'm talking to people like, you know, like, oh yeah, I was in this really bad accident, right? And she's like, you always. Lead with your accident like Why would I? I'm like, well, that's part of who I am and there are still some things going on that are a result of that and it like, so I had all of these. Explanations or excuses or whatever they were.

30:25 - Carrie Rickert And so for me the, the concept of you can put this down. Difficult one. So I can imagine that that is difficult for most of your clients, right? That, that it takes learning and healing to be able to get to that place.

30:47 - Hailee Mae Oh, absolutely, absolutely. In my healing journey, my identity was I am a sexual abuse. Victim. I amm a trauma victim. I am a survivor. That was my identity because There were many parts of my childhood that were very tumultuous, and I experienced a lot of sexual and developmental betrayal trauma. That was my identity. I am a victim and I say that. I say I like to help my clients know that they can put it down. But not that they should put it down or they need to put it down because For myself, putting it down was very scary because that was who I was and my identity and if I were to put it down then it might completely dismiss what had happened to me.

31:51 - Carrie Rickert I feel that like that is, that was kind of my response to her was, well, we're just gonna pretend that that didn't happen, like that happened, that has. It may not be my comp. Complete definition right, but it has informed how my life has unhelmed since then, or, you know, progressed since then. It it is I don't think you can let go of trauma in such a way that you like, put it down forever, right? Like it's still a part of you, you're still gonna carry it around. I wanna say, my acupuncturist said the other day she's like, cause I'm actually doing some acupuncture for Ptsd right now.

32:48 - Carrie Rickert And she said, and I was really scared about it. I'm like, I know I want to do this because I want to not feel terrible. Every time I drive in the C in in the car, I said, but is this gonna make me remember things I didn't, but I don't remember. Ember And she's like, No, we're not taking all of the things. Away that happened. We're just detaching the feelings, the emotions from it. Is that kind of how you look at it, like Detaching the anxiety and the fear and the like, Yes, this horrible thing has happened to you.

33:30 - Carrie Rickert We're not denying that that is a part of who you are, and you don't have to have those emotions wrapped up in it.

33:40 - Hailee Mae absolutely. I love that. For me it is When I visualize it, it's almost like I set it down in a box and the is there and the trauma is there. But it's not a part of me, it's not. Burdening me Is it burdening me? It's not weighing on me, but it's there and sometimes I just have it sitting right next to me. Sometimes I close the lid, sometimes I leave the lid oth open. Often times I like to put it in a closet. Somewhere, maybe in a storage unit and I can accesss it at any time because it is mine and it was my experience.

34:27 - Hailee Mae However, carrying around that box just wasn't serving me anymore, it wasn't helping me to progress, so I decided to set it down, but again, it is still mine to keep and to access whenever I want it.

34:43 - Carrie Rickert Okay, so you help your clients get to the place where they can. That it's still theres, that is always going to be a part of their life, but it doesn't have to weigh on them,

35:02 - Hailee Mae Absolutely, because again,

35:03 - Carrie Rickert okay?

35:05 - Hailee Mae we don't want to completely dismiss what had happened to us, because experiences did shape who we are today. They were real and they happened.

35:15 - Carrie Rickert Yep.

35:18 - Hailee Mae But they don't have to be a weight and a burden on us anymore. However, I will say in my healing experience that I started about three years ago. I had a coach who kept offering to me maybe you're not a sexual abuse victim, maybe you're a sexual abuse victor, maybe you're not just a trauma survivor, maybe you're a trauma thriver. Meaning You are the victor of your story. You're not the victim. You are a thriver, not just a survivor. You're a hero in this,

36:00 - Carrie Rickert Okay, so, so she was using a reframe for you to kind of

36:05 - Hailee Mae absolutely. She was trying to help me replace my prior understanding or beliefs about my identity as a victim. And really help me see how I ended up being the victor of my story. I didn't die, or I didn't give up, or I kept trying, I kept healing. She offered that to me and it wasn't safe at the time. I really wanted to hold on to the fact that no, I was a victim and I was victimized, and I held on to that belief because that is what was real for me. And it took years. It took about four years of my healing journey to finally get to a point where I wanted to, and it felt safe for me.

36:58 - Hailee Mae To reframe to create a newer narrative that again didn't completely dismiss my experience, but it was a newer narrative that was more empowering to me.

37:10 - Carrie Rickert Okay, yeah, but I, I like how you said that, that, that it wasn't. It is okay for you to understand that the Reframe is available to you. It is also okay Not to be ready to to absorb that reframe.

37:32 - Hailee Mae Absolutely for me it was a no, I was like, oh, thank you and it's a no, until all of a sudden one day I was like, Wow. I am a trauma survivor and thriver. Wow, like that is me. And it felt good and it felt real, but when it had been offered to me four years prior, didn't.

38:00 - Carrie Rickert Because I think in some way it I mean you have to. You know, it's like the always say like when you're done, you're done, you know, like, you deal with things, the status quo, because that is human nature. Like we're not gonna change. Anything is changing as heart, right? You do it, you do it, you do it, and then when you're done, you're like, and I'm done, I'm not doing this anymore. So it sounds like it was kind of that sort of switch for you that you went from I'm a victim to But it took four years to make the switch.

38:42 - Carrie Rickert But then, when you were done being the victim, you you were the thriver, you were the survivor and thriver. Is that.

38:52 - Hailee Mae I got to. I got to keep both. That's the beauty is. I was a survivor. But I'm also a thriver,

39:00 - Carrie Rickert Absolutely.

39:01 - Hailee Mae and I was a victim, and I also was. I am the victor of my story, of my journey. Both feel aligned and both feel true. But I will say. Being the thriver and being the victor and the hero of my story hass been so empowering for me to help other people access that part of their story if and when they're ready.

39:34 - Carrie Rickert how do you, how do you manage that? As a trauma medication coach How do you manage the client who isn't ready for that? Reframe.

39:53 - Hailee Mae definitely where a lot of the training has come in again. Being able to Your client and their individual story understand how their trauma hass impacted them.

40:07 - Carrie Rickert Wow.

40:08 - Hailee Mae For me, it's pretty clear I And this is gonna be. This might not be the most helpful answer, but for me, I just know I can see it in them that that is not available to them. With their body language, with how they're reacting if their nervous system is being activated. I know that that's not available, that's not relative and that we need to, we needed to switch into something different.

40:39 - Carrie Rickert Okay, so what do you switch into? W What do you do if that's not available to them to still help them move forward?

40:50 - Hailee Mae again, helping them feel Sean heard, understood, and then going to the nervous system to help them regulate so Once we can down regulate the nervous system, we are more able to access our pre F frontal cortex. A lot of people call it the higher brain or the superior brain. Once we can regulate our nervous system, some more mindfulness can happen. And so that again, that's when the somatic healing modalities can come in breath work, some yoga, Emdr, just tapping right, left, right, left, right, left.

41:37 - Hailee Mae Bilateral stimulation. I think I said it right, that time. Taking, taking a moment to just ground and center themselves again This is not a one size fits all. I have clients who when we work on breathing, breathing techniques, that is extremely activating and triggering. For them,

42:02 - Carrie Rickert Ok. Ah,

42:03 - Hailee Mae breathing is not something that helps them regulate their nervous system,

42:04 - Carrie Rickert interesting.

42:08 - Hailee Mae it actually makes it worse. So then we try tapping, we try, Emdr, we try different things because again it is not a one size fits all.

42:24 - Carrie Rickert Great, great. That makes sense. What advice do you have for someone who's interested in seeking help for their trauma but are scared? You know, hesitant, unsure, you know? Haven't like feel like maybe I'll make the appointment, maybe not, like, you know, how can people access All the help that's available, because I think a good portion of the challenge with our systems in this country is lack of access, right? We don't know what's available. Help us. What's your advice for that?

43:19 - Hailee Mae Well, the 1st thing I would say is you are. One hundred percent whole as you are you deserve all of the goodness and to live your best life and you are also not alone I think the, the most important message is we are all normal human beings. Experiencing normal emotions in a very abnormal world and an abnormal society. And so that is what I would like to offer in the very beginning. You are whole and complete as you are And now you have an option continue to heal or to heal some things that might be holding you back in your life.

44:13 - Hailee Mae I actually stumbled across all of the healing modalities that I utilize in my own life. Only just maybe 18 months ago, I had gotten to a point where all of my therapists and, and I will tell you that this is, this is sh earth shattering when you have Exhausted everything that you know. And your therapists are saying I'm so sorry, but I really don't know how else to help you. There really is nothing else that I can do at that moment in my life. And that was literally three and a half, four years ago, it was confirmed to me, to me, that I was actually legitimately super duper, extra, forever shattered and broken, and there was no hope for me.

45:05 - Hailee Mae And so I just continued on living my life and struggling in every aspect of my life until in my coach. Ching World I stumbled across trauma mitigation coaching and I'm like, What is this? I just delved in and I started doing all the research and I'm like, what is somatic healing, what is tapping, what is Emdr, what is all of this? I had no idea. I had no idea it existed. So I guesss what my suggestion would be is Don't give up. There is a healing modality that can help you if you haven't felt healed or seen or broken with what you've tried so far.

46:01 - Hailee Mae There are so many other options out there and it might just be a Google search.

46:07 - Carrie Rickert Hey.

46:08 - Hailee Mae It might be talking as difficult as that is, talking to people asking, hey. Have you had any experience with this? Do you see somebody? What have you tried?

46:24 - Carrie Rickert It's, it's interesting because I didn't like I knew of acupuncture, right? But I didn't know I didn't have any experience with it. And the woman who was in the car accident with me. She injured both of her arms and still suffers from pain for that. And and she was like, and she knows that I still suffer from some pain. She was like, care, you should try this and then so. And she actually found my acupuncture at the office. Based on somebody that she knew who you know. So it is like this whole like thing to get me to these particular practitioners who have changed my life.

47:21 - Carrie Rickert You know, I have felt I used to feel and, and sometimes I still do, like when I get incredibly anxious, especially with driving, I tighten up right on my neck and, and shoulder on the right side and I can feel it starting, and I will let my hands go and wiggle my fingers, and try and loosen up, and nothing helps, and After the 1st treatment I had on my neck and shoulders, I was like, I didn't even realize I was in that kind of pain until the pain was gone. Always am managing to live with this for so long, and I think that's what so many people do.

48:18 - Carrie Rickert Things build up over time. You get used to it, right? You know, like I have an incredibly high tolerance for pain. Because I've experienced a whole lot of pain, so like it doesn't, you know, I'm like, whatever, I fell down and screwed many big deals, whereas, you know, somebody else might be like, you know, like But I feel like over time, especially people who have experienced trauma tend to numb out to that a little bit, if that makes sense, like, Don't feel it as bad as it actually is until it's gone.

49:05 - Carrie Rickert You kind of get to that point where you're like, I can live with this, it's fine, it's fine, I can live with this. And then when you get a glimpse that, that. Maybe I don't have to live with this. It's completely life changing, right?

49:26 - Hailee Mae Absolutely, absolutely. You're so right. For those of us who do carry trauma or who have suffered from trauma. What we do is we completely just disassociate the mind from the body because being in our body at times maybe wasn't safe or doesn't feel safe. So I love that you have found acupuncture that is brilliant. I have to tell you as much as I love tapping and have utilized tapping. Emotional pain. I had a tapping practitioner that I was in a conference with last week who had offered to do some tapping with me on a bulge disc in my neck that I've had chronic pain from for over 20 years, and I immediately was like, Oh well, sure you can give it a go, but I actually have a bulge disc, so this tapping is not gonna work, but I am going to just play along.

50:31 - Hailee Mae I know tapping can change people's lives as far as stress and anxiety, but we're not gonna magically heal a bulge disc in my neck. So I kind of went into it with this terrible attitude. This was literally last Wednesday, so a week and a half ago. We tapped on my neck pain and I was like, awesome, thanks so much. When about the rest of my evening, I woke up the next morning and I'm not kidding, carry, my neck pain was gone.

51:04 - Carrie Rickert Isn't that amazing?

51:05 - Hailee Mae I mean it really is, it's a miracle. Now what I will say is that wasn't like the end all, it was all encompassing healing.

51:13 - Carrie Rickert Sure, now it comes back.

51:15 - Hailee Mae it came and it is back. I mean I am feeling the, the tightness and I feel it flared up right now, but that whole next day. I didn't experience any pain and I have had chronic pain for 20 years now. I haven't continued the tapping on my neck, but I will say that. For me, that was just a really big eye opener that there are more tools out there than we know and maybe just being open to trying. I mean, that could be the difference between yes.

51:50 - Carrie Rickert a spark of hope. Wow, you've talked a lot about different courses that you've taken and um. You know, conferences you've gone to, so how, how do you continue to educate yourself and stay up to date with the latest research and technologies?

52:19 - Hailee Mae Well, I just geek out on all of this. Now I feel like I opened a bag of worms again as somebody who up until age thirty five not that long ago felt like I was um I I was hopeless finding all of this I have just delved all in pretty much any accredited trauma certification that I stumble on. I am a part of it. I just finished up trauma mitigation course with a phenomenal professor in Philadelphia, and I'm in one right now. Gabor Mae is a brilliant, brilliant, I don't even know what he would consider himself.

53:11 - Hailee Mae I'm just going to say a therapist. I've taken several of his courses. I can you want to know what? The number one thing I do though, Carry W, is what I will say is how do I stay up to date is I continue to heal myself and work on my own healing journey. It's important to me that my clients know that I'm not this individual at the top of the mountain, looking down on them, struggling up this mountain like I made it. Good luck, Keep, keep going. Coming, I'm in it. I might be just a few passes ahead of you.

53:55 - Hailee Mae I might have more tools that I've accessed or gained along the way, but I am in it. As well, and when you're too tired, or when you don't know what to do next. I've walked that road a little bit, and I can, I can tell you. I can offer things if you need me to. I can like, pull you up a little bit, but I am on the same journey as well.

54:23 - Carrie Rickert I love that. I think that in itself allows you to compassionate and to. Listen deeply, right? Because you're doing this too, your, your. I feel like that would be very, heartening and relatable to have someone in your corner that is continuing to heal and, and I think that's an important thing to like think about too, right? Like you don't just get healed, like, Oh, I'm healed Fine, because that stuff is still a part of you and it can come back in ways that you don't necessarily expect, environmental trigger, right?

55:23 - Carrie Rickert And and so it is important And I think maybe set the expectation for yourself or, you know, for clients that this is a lifelong journey. That is not to say you're not going to feel better. That it is going to always take intentional work.

55:49 - Hailee Mae I love that and it's, you get stronger, right? It's not necessarily that it completely goes away. You get stronger. 

1:01:14 - Carrie Rickert Let me ask you. Of the things that you have been learning most recently, what's something that really sticks out the most?

1:01:41 - Hailee Mae I mentioned Gabor Matte, which he's actually he, his label is a physician, that's, that's what he refers to himself as, but he's an expert on all things trauma. He He hass this quote that really just blew my mind and he says trauma is what happens inside of you as a result of what happened to you. Quotes. His name is Zma Menachem. I completely destroyed that pronunciation. Quote to just It just encompasses everything. And he said trauma can be anything that happens too much, too fast, too soon, too long, coupled with not enough of what should have happened.

1:02:42 - Hailee Mae Quote right there. Means so much to me, especially because I feel like there are so many of us walking around thinking, well, I didn't have a near death experience, I wasn't sexually abused. So really I don't have trauma and I'm just,

1:03:03 - Carrie Rickert My trauma doesn't count.

1:03:05 - Hailee Mae or my trauma doesn't count, you know, where we get into the tea,

1:03:07 - Carrie Rickert It is real.

1:03:08 - Hailee Mae little tea trauma. I under. Understand why we've classified it as big tea and little tea, but sometimes I think we need to be careful with classifying things as little tea. Trauma because it doesn't matter what the event was Depending on the person and their experiences, trauma can be anything that happens too much, too fast, too long toon coupled with not enough of what should have happened, so it is all individual.

1:03:43 - Carrie Rickert I think that's so important to remember cause I, you know, like I frequently have people say to me like they'll, they'll talk about something that happened to them and then they'll say, but of course that's nothing like what happened to you. My response to that is. It isn't like what happens to me, but that doesn't make it any less valid or important. It's happening to you, so it is important. And I think so many people think like you said, I didn't have, I wasn't sexually abused. Like I don't really have trauma.

1:04:28 - Carrie Rickert You know, or like, you know, I was only bullied in middle school. That's not trauma. And yet it can be and it is for many people, and I think we deny that a lot that, that we have experienced trauma and that we could benefit all of these modalities to work through those things. Healing is part of the journey, right? Like that, That's how we get to actually living life is by healing as we go along, right?

1:05:16 - Hailee Mae absolutely. And I mean again, I am such a nerd when it comes to all things trauma, but I just I think both. Our mission is to help people not only heal from trauma or recognize trauma, but to understand that, you know, there's primary trauma, maybe something that directly happened to you, but there's also things like vicarious trauma where Maybe you didn't experience this thing, but there is something traumatic happening in your environment, in your atmosphere. And that can play, that can be traumatic.

1:05:58 - Hailee Mae I mean the world we're living in, there are wars, there are mass shootings, We are all experiencing types of secondary or vicarious trauma, even if we aren't directly impacted by that. And that might be helpful for some people,

1:06:14 - Carrie Rickert Hey.

1:06:16 - Hailee Mae and that might not be helpful for some people. Some people might not want to label it that way, and that's okay. But just knowing that and knowing that there might be some trauma and there might be some healing that can happen there. May be useful, maybe liberating to some.

1:06:35 - Carrie Rickert I was gonna say that sounds like freedom to me.

1:06:38 - Hailee Mae Freedom, right? I love that. That's my I, I just decided that was my mission statement. Is Helping others heal and find freedom.

1:06:50 - Carrie Rickert I love that good one.

1:06:53 - Hailee Mae Thank you,

1:06:53 - Carrie Rickert Definitely.

1:06:54 - Hailee Mae I just came up with it.

1:06:56 - Carrie Rickert That's awesome. Hey, if people are interested in working with you, how can they find you?

1:07:04 - Hailee Mae um my website is haley may dot com haley is spelled with an I and es and May is spelled with an e instead of a y. Because my mom just super creative and wanted to make my life difficult spelling my name so hay may dot com I'm on instagram Facebook hay may coaching linkedin haley may coaching or you can shoot me an email at coaching at hay may dot com.

1:07:41 - Carrie Rickert Awesome. Thank you so much. Anything else you'd like to share with us today before we close?

1:07:53 - Hailee Mae Ooh, I don't wanna get emotional, I'm about to get emotional, I wanna share, I've said this, I have said this several times, 1st of all thank you for being you, thank you for inviting me on and letting me share some of my experiences. I'm gonna say what I've been saying. All along, but I'm feeling the emotions because I believe it a thousand percent that anyone listening to this You are not broken, and you are not your trauma, and you are not what happened to you. You are whole, you are beautiful, and you deserve to heal and find freedom.

1:08:35 - Carrie Rickert Wonderful. Thank you so much. I am so glad you are here today. This has been a wonderful conversation.

1:08:42 - Hailee Mae Thank you, Carrie.

1:08:48 - Carrie Rickert Okay, we've thought that it still says it's recording because of the transcript stuff. My goodness.

1:08:57 - Hailee Mae You are amazing.

1:08:59 - Carrie Rickert That was fabulous. I honestly, what a great conversation and thank you for rolling with me. Cause I did not re, I mean I hit some of the things on the script, but then I totally went off script.

1:09:11 - Hailee Mae I love it, though I of those candid conversations. I really do.

1:09:14 - Carrie Rickert I do know, I, I think they, they come out being a much more genuine podcast.

1:09:23 - Hailee Mae I agree. I, I think you, you're an amazing facilitator. You, you just have this calming presence and I loved how you I, I just loved the dialogue. I, I love the dynamic of, oh well, this is my experience and this is how I feel. I'm like, yes, it's so important that we all know that it just is all individual.

1:09:47 - Carrie Rickert I think so too. I think, I think this is gonna be so helpful for people, so spread the word. It will be, it'll be uploaded. It'll drop on Wednesday, so I start promoting it on Monday.

1:10:03 - Hailee Mae wow.

1:10:05 - Carrie Rickert and unless I have some kind of craziness with the editing because have that little bit.

1:10:10 - Hailee Mae cause we did have that where?

1:10:15 - Carrie Rickert I've gotten pretty decent with the editing, so hopefully not. And you know, if there's a little bit, I'll just show the commercial about something.

1:10:25 - Hailee Mae Do it. Promote your book.

1:10:27 - Carrie Rickert Yes, it's So close,

1:10:29 - Hailee Mae I was gonna say what,

1:10:30 - Carrie Rickert hey, so close,

1:10:31 - Hailee Mae where, What are we looking at? What's the date?

1:10:33 - Carrie Rickert so.

1:10:37 - Hailee Mae Stop it.

1:10:37 - Carrie Rickert Hold on, let me, let me turn off. So it's not out yet, see? Okay, so now you can see the cover, isn't it beautiful, can you see it? I can't hear you now. Did you hit me?

1:11:02 - Hailee Mae What about now?

1:11:04 - Carrie Rickert Now I can hear you.

1:11:05 - Hailee Mae Oh, I must.

1:11:05 - Carrie Rickert Okay,

1:11:06 - Hailee Mae I I think I turned off my microphone on accident. Carry, It's beautiful. That's your creation.

1:11:12 - Carrie Rickert thank you.

1:11:13 - Hailee Mae In your hand.

1:11:14 - Carrie Rickert You know, you notice the weirdest thing when you finish your own book. I read it from Friendship.

1:11:21 - Hailee Mae You read your own book.

1:11:23 - Carrie Rickert I read my own book. It's so weird.

1:11:26 - Hailee Mae I like, I wouldn't even know what to think or feel about that.

1:11:30 - Carrie Rickert It's, I mean I, I, I read it because I had to like, make sure there is nothing wrong and then I added some new edits and stuff like that, but So I'm waiting for the final hard copy. Based on my edits from this one and um, and then I can approve the distribution.

1:11:55 - Hailee Mae I hope I'm one of the 1st to know when it's to be ordered.

1:11:58 - Carrie Rickert Yes, I will let you know for sure. I'm so excited.

1:12:02 - Hailee Mae I cannot wait. To have that as one more tool in my toolbox,

1:12:06 - Carrie Rickert Oh,

1:12:06 - Hailee Mae you know, I'm gonna promote the heck out of it.

1:12:07 - Carrie Rickert thank you. oh, thank you so much. I was I was talking to um. One of my business clients is a therapist. He's the guy who is mentioned in this has a company out of Louisiana that is Virtual therapy. Works with corporations. Has them buy into the service so that every single employee has access to mental health and they can do it from the safety of their home or they can call in from their office.

1:12:45 - Hailee Mae Brilliant.

1:12:50 - Carrie Rickert like whatever, it's it they can feel comfortable and have access to therapy. And you know, his whole thing is. Providing this service, we are not maximizing the capacity employees like If they have all of these things that are weighing on them,

1:13:12 - Hailee Mae Yes.

1:13:17 - Carrie Rickert that's taking away from the job that they are doing right and, and that's probably not how they want to be living their life. He is got it he's you know worked his way into a bunch of very large and and then he has other a couple of other different arms including a substance abuse arm that that you know so he it's b to c and b two b right I was, I was thinking about it the other day cause we were talking about the, I'm like, you know what I feel like, My book might be a good resource for him to like, offer his clients.

1:14:04 - Carrie Rickert A discounted rate cause I mean they could buy it at the like store rate, right? And I'm like Everybody could have a cup, and I will get to my million books sold, because that's my goal.

1:14:19 - Hailee Mae Yes, Hey, did you pitch it? I hope you pitched it.

1:14:22 - Carrie Rickert I haven't pitched it yet. I I He was already on my list of people to send like a merchant. Copy too. So, and he and I have worked together now for like five years, so we've become very good friends. And our working relationship is, has ended because it, it's a state funded program and he's gone through the program like four or five times and so the state isn't gonna keep offering him to go program for free.

1:14:54 - Hailee Mae I get it.

1:14:55 - Carrie Rickert He's like, can we still like keep in touch? She's like, I love bouncing ideas off and I'm like absolutely and and I said that even if I hadn't had an agenda also, but he was already on my list of people to send the book to.

1:15:08 - Hailee Mae Oh, yeah.

1:15:15 - Carrie Rickert Hey, if you find this to be helpful, buy another copy and give it to somebody else. And then like because we talked yesterday, I'm like, actually like we can have a pretty decent partnerships there.

1:15:30 - Hailee Mae I was just gonna say.

1:15:33 - Carrie Rickert The and and maybe Those corporations may even want to bringing me in to talk to people. And I could talk about how utilizing services is so important in healing. And so anyway, I've got like my brains going a million miles an hour and I wish I didn't have to do any of the Stuff that pays the bills so that I can focus on this,

1:16:00 - Hailee Mae I am w up.

1:16:01 - Carrie Rickert so that this becomes what pays the bills.

1:16:05 - Hailee Mae Yes, I know it's like, why, why is this getting in the way? I was gonna tell you that, Carry, I was like, I, I went to this, I told you this conference, did I say that, Did I tell you in the podcast?

1:16:16 - Carrie Rickert Yeah, you did.

1:16:18 - Hailee Mae Okay with the two therapists. And it was so scary for me, but I was like, I'm just gonna go up and I'm gonna pitch to them that I think that they should have me in their practice as a trauma coach.

1:16:32 - Carrie Rickert Awesome.

1:16:33 - Hailee Mae And I did. I went up, I gave them my business card and I was like, if you have any clients who are transitioning out of therapy but still want some coaching or healing modalities, keep me in mind. And um, it was so scary, but I did it. And so as you were talking,

1:16:50 - Carrie Rickert I'm so proud of you.

1:16:52 - Hailee Mae thank you, as you were talking now, I was like, Carry needs to pitch herself to him and say, hey, like I needed to be on your team as a trauma.

1:17:02 - Carrie Rickert Yes.

1:17:03 - Hailee Mae coach and do events and because that is like where I wanna go, speak to people and

1:17:10 - Carrie Rickert I wanna talk to people I, I want to talk to people I want. It's like I just, I can have such a huge impact in such a positive way if I can get in front of the audiences. So I'm like trying So hard to figure out like, okay, what makes sense and like I know I have to spend money in order to be able to do this well. Hugely beneficial to everyone involved. Like, I've got that whole win win thing going for me, like This is gonna help everybody.

1:17:51 - Hailee Mae you do, you do, yeah,

1:17:54 - Carrie Rickert Let's just do this.

1:17:56 - Hailee Mae well, and it sounds like you have the connections too, which is, I feel like the hardest part, like for me. I'm just trying to find connections,

1:18:05 - Carrie Rickert Connections, Yeah.

1:18:07 - Hailee Mae but you have this one right here, and if he's already You know, working with these big corporations, it's like,

1:18:16 - Carrie Rickert Maybe yes,

1:18:16 - Hailee Mae tap into that.

1:18:18 - Carrie Rickert and like it didn't hit me until like we talked yesterday afternoon, it hit me til this morning and I was like, shit. We, you could totally be partners. He's no longer in this program, so like there's no conflict of interest anymore. You know, like there is a conflict of interest if he's part of that program because I am part of that program,

1:18:48 - Hailee Mae And this was a programm for who, who you work with right now, right?

1:18:54 - Carrie Rickert It is. So I work with a non profit organization called the Edward Low Foundation. Edward Low invented kitty litter.

1:19:00 - Hailee Mae Uhhuh.

1:19:04 - Carrie Rickert He was also an entrepreneur, and so he made this enormous fortune, and left a good portion of his fortune to build this foundation to help entrepreneurs grow their businesses. So I work with, I work with that program and as a team lead, I do I, I interview people all day long like this is, this is why podcasting works for me.

1:19:34 - Hailee Mae This is why you're so good at this. I'm like she.

1:19:39 - Carrie Rickert I have literally interviewed people for the last like 15 years, not just with this program, but I did organizational assessments in my previous management consulting firm. Like asking questions is like what I do. And I like it. I enjoy learning about people and their businesses and all of those things. So it's something that I really like, but I, and it's great because I get to listen to what their needs are and figure out which of my specialists are best able to help them in their immediate goals.

1:20:19 - Carrie Rickert So then I put together a team and, and we do this whole engagement and then we have this after care piece, which is like an accountability kind of thing, well. Lawrence has been through the program like four times and Um, he's been mine every single time, which, you know, like he asks for me because, you know, I have the familiarity with his programm, I, with his company, I've seen how he's grown, I, I, you know, so it like, Makes it a we don't have to start from scratch kind of thing every single time,

1:20:57 - Hailee Mae Beautiful.

1:20:58 - Carrie Rickert you know. But I've met some incredible people all around the country. Are doing some absolutely amazing things. So I am very fortunate that I have that kind of access to people, you know, and it's that whole piece and, and I actually was talking about this with Laurence yesterday cause um, I was like He's like, it occurred to me that I actually deserve a good life. He said that and I'm like, that's the part I have trouble with, that is absolutely the part I have trouble with because I feel like if I take You know, like my fair share or whatever, like if I take, I'm taking away from somebody else, but it's not actually, like I know logically it is not like that, you know.

1:22:06 - Hailee Mae There's a part of you, the belief, say yeah.

1:22:07 - Carrie Rickert But there's a part of me that believes that and that. So that has been my big like mindset piece that I've been working on for the last six months. Like, I deserve to be successful. Success doesn't mean other people won't be successful, it just means that I will have greater capacity to help others be successful. And so like,

1:22:34 - Hailee Mae The world will benefit from us.

1:22:34 - Carrie Rickert I have to keep telling myself that I, I, I have to keep telling myself that like it is okay for me to be successful because I'm using that success and even if I wasn't using that success, it's still okay for me to be successful because I work really damn hard.

1:22:52 - Hailee Mae Because it's just a basic human right of mind to just be successful. The more successful I amm, the more it benefits the world. Like I believe that for you a thousand percent,

1:23:03 - Carrie Rickert It's I do, too. I do, too. But it's like it is, so it's so hard to get the house. So like it was interesting that that was our conversation yesterday and then it was like he would be open to doing something like this and since he's no longer a client of mine,

1:23:12 - Hailee Mae I know.

1:23:28 - Carrie Rickert I can do The rule with the Edward Low Foundation is that as long as you don't have a current engagement going you can work with and if they approach you, not granted, I'm approaching him, but he's not gonna tell anybody.

1:23:47 - Hailee Mae It sounds like you guys have a good enough relationship that he's.

1:23:50 - Carrie Rickert Exactly, he'll be like, Oh, this is perfect. And and I was planning on sending him a book anyway. So I, I even told him I said, I almost, I'm almost getting ready to send you something, so I'm gonna text you soon and ask for your address.

1:24:05 - Hailee Mae Oh my gosh Carry, this is like, yeah, this could be a really great thing.

1:24:12 - Carrie Rickert So I'm getting really excited about that.

1:24:14 - Hailee Mae So is he very like, is he bit well established and successful?

1:24:18 - Carrie Rickert Oh yeah,

1:24:18 - Hailee Mae so, which is kind of like,

1:24:21 - Carrie Rickert he's he, I, I could, yeah, like and

1:24:25 - Hailee Mae You back on his because he's benefited from your knowledge and resources and now you can benefit from his knowledge and resources.

1:24:30 - Carrie Rickert Great. exactly. And and I think we could continue to be a really cool team.

1:24:43 - Hailee Mae Oh, my gosh, Carry, I'm like getting goose bumps for you.

1:24:50 - Carrie Rickert So exciting, so yes,

1:24:51 - Hailee Mae get it. You got it like you.

1:24:52 - Carrie Rickert so.

1:24:54 - Hailee Mae You deserve this and you are qualified for this.

1:24:59 - Carrie Rickert Thank you,

1:25:00 - Hailee Mae Do you believe that Okay.

1:25:02 - Carrie Rickert I'm getting there. I'm qualified to talk about my unique experience. I know that I am qualified to talk about how. Can utilize my experience to help them in their lives to spark that hope or,

1:25:22 - Hailee Mae Move.

1:25:25 - Carrie Rickert you know, impact them in a positive way. Feel like the piece I'm missing is the certifications and But I also need to make money before I can do that. You know, it's like cart.

1:25:44 - Hailee Mae I don't mostly we, I just feel like, And I say this as somebody who has certifications really feel like, okay, yes, there are gonna be some organizations or some people. A certification and like we talked about before, a specific Ic certification. So there are things that I can't, I'm not even qualified for because I don't have an Ic certification, but I've just decided as like my people are gonna find me with what I have in my experience. So if you wanna get a certification down the road, like, great, I I should send you Herr Podcast.

1:26:33 - Hailee Mae She is a business coach and a life coach. I adore her and she's, she's brilliant and she's like, I don't have certifications. She's like and at 1st that really like held me back, that, that kept tripping me up, but she's like now I wear it as a badge of honor. I'm a very successful life coach, I coach other coaches and I don't have any certifications.

1:26:59 - Carrie Rickert Wow, that's good to know.

1:27:02 - Hailee Mae It's possible. It's possible because you don't need one.

1:27:05 - Carrie Rickert Honestly, like I enjoy the one on one conversation, but if I could get and stand in front of a room and tell people about my experience and, and share with them the different modalities that I use to help me heal,

1:27:21 - Hailee Mae Yes.

1:27:21 - Carrie Rickert like I'm giving people resources they wouldn't necessarily know exists. I mean. There's so much shit I've had to make up as I've gone along. You know, you've had the same experience like you, it's, it's taken a lot of work.

1:27:38 - Hailee Mae We can just like get rid of all of that for people.

1:27:41 - Carrie Rickert I need exactly like I just want to be able to. Share with people what worked for me and not because it's necessarily going to work for them, but to give them hope that something will.

1:27:59 - Hailee Mae I think it's yours. I think you just get it.

1:28:03 - Carrie Rickert Thank you, thank you.

1:28:06 - Hailee Mae and get it.

1:28:07 - Carrie Rickert Well, it was really funny. Hey, you're gonna laugh. This because my dad. I was talking to my dad the other day and he's like, I almost finished your book and I'm like, that's great cause I gave him one of my advanced copies. So, you know, it's still got some things that are wrong in it, but I'm like, you're gonna have to just relook those and you said I'm almost finish your book. I'm like, what do you think he's like, I I'm going to not talk about your book with you until after I'm finished it because I want to like gotten all of the context before I talk about it, he said, But as I'm reading, I keep thinking, Wow, this is really good.

1:28:53 - Carrie Rickert And I'm and I'm like, Thanks, dad, that means a lot. And then I hung up the phone and I was like, or, I'm offended that you didn't think I was gonna write a good book.

1:29:01 - Hailee Mae Hey.

1:29:04 - Carrie Rickert I don't know.

1:29:05 - Hailee Mae You're surprised at how good it is.

1:29:08 - Carrie Rickert I don't know what I feel.

1:29:12 - Hailee Mae Relief that its good, but also like,

1:29:15 - Carrie Rickert What do you mean? Man Of course it's good.

1:29:18 - Hailee Mae of course it's good. Dad Okay, that is funny, that is really funny.

1:29:23 - Carrie Rickert It was so funny, I just realized. I put in an order for Simon to for my son to get pizza and I was supposed to pick it up. 15 min ago.

1:29:30 - Hailee Mae Oh my gosh, okay, I'm let you go. I'm gonna stop planning.

1:29:32 - Carrie Rickert All right.

1:29:33 - Hailee Mae Thank you for having me on. It really was such a pleasure.